[22.01.17] What i see around Trixter

[weaw]

I see, it's a "first (second, third) approach, but not a release". Ok.

In general, the gladiator of 50 lvl which able to do 45/0 in the Black Market is interesting.
Why?
Because a gladiator of 50 will touch some perfect -made gladiators about 55 (five levels and sometimes the years of the practice),
What he will do when he will be upgraded to 55? I know the answer : Without changing a strategy (or changing it chaotically) he will eat everything.

You may think something like "New styles. New behavior..." Not. Every behavior have a counter. Or must to have it. But Trixter's skills/strategies has no counter.

It's a current diagnosis for the Trixters of the high brackets: chaotic behavior and a wins as a result...

Detailed now (And IMHO).
-- Dirty Tricks too ... unconditional.
-- Health/Stamina recovery too high (100+, 20+ it's a real hell. Again, without any condition).

It's enough for first look, i think.

// I'm really afraid to have not chaotic Trixter-build in the BG.

Nothing else.

[Kreegan]

Trixters have very bad offense if they stick to their own tree so they seem to rely purely on exhaustion of the opponent. Currently the issue is that they will probably become one-dimensional like the Shadows who always go for the endurance-draining builds because the offensive ones just don't cut it. Other than that, the Cheating Bastard build is annoyingly efficient vs. everything which can't consistently score high damage and terrible vs. bleeders of all kinds and Power Theatrics.
Dirty Tricks is indeed too powerful for such a low-tier skill. Attack avoidance + up to 2 rounds of Blind is often better than even Create Distance (which is upper tier skill).

[Adoede]

Too soon to tell imho.

As Kreegan pointed out, shadows dominate in lower levels and pit fights too, but they've never been effective in blood gods. Maybe that will change now that tanks are becoming less viable. So far what I see with Trixter is that they are tailor-made to counter the true tanks in the game...but they have inherent weaknesses against speedier builds. Perhaps this will lead to a revival of the speed builds and allow other types of offensive war builds to be competitive.

I guess Nate finally got sick of seeing tanks win everything and suppress all the other build types. He tried endurance drain with Shadows...but the darn things couldn't hit the tanks often enough to drain them. He tried extreme bleeding with Slayers...but they also had a hard time landing the blood bath before falling from exhaustion. These cheating trixters are a bit of a fool-proof way to ensure tanks don't dominate blood gods anymore. Looks like we'll be seeing a lot more variety in builds at the top of blood gods now...

[weaw]

... shadows dominate in lower levels and pit fights too, but they've never been effective in blood gods.

We have 4 of Trixters in the BG. They are 52-53, i.e. has no 55-legendaries and looks fine...
The probability to score zero loses in the Pit Fights for Shadow ~50lvl a bit high than zero. Their domination in the Pit Fights exaggerated. The only relatively viable Shadow-build means Exotic weapon. And Exotics means a very small chance to have right weapon's subtype during Pit Fights.
And i can't believe that counter-attacker may have a troubles vs speeders. Because two rounds enough to bury a speeder, using counter-attack. Considering Dirty Tricks for two rounds, which will be triggered just at the start. Perhaps, Rage-dodgers have chance. But i'm not sure.
I think Power Rages have best chance here. Because (it seems) Dirty Tricks triggers only on "empty" attack, the attack without activates. Power Rage has enough offensive activates. And have greatest damage output too...

[weaw]

Currently the issue is that they will probably become one-dimensional like the Shadows who always go for the endurance-draining builds because the offensive ones just don't cut it.

I don't see a problem here, globally. Really.
Endurance. Health. The wins via these substats are equal in some sense.
Now we have the choice. It's good. Because pre-Sahdow&Mist state: "No one able to fight using Endurance, except the Tanks." It was annoying. Because it was ugly.

And the Trixter's form as Endurance-oriented fighters is ... ugly too. Regeneration 400+ (i saw it!) of Health and 27+ of Endurance per round lying out of my understanding. It just not fit in the current BG fights, where we are trying to win having few points of Health/Endurance more than opponent...
And, again, it will lead, obviously, to "new" concept. Which is old. "Have one ultimate style/skillset and You will be fine." It's a mirror of the Tanks. Same idea. Same principle:"I will stay! Does not matter!". So, it's annoying so long. :)

I'm disappointed.

Nothing more.

// The problem which Trixters currently have (in my opinion, sure) it's the problem like "Too much useless offensive activates." It will be resolved soon. By something like that:


Allowing to use both Bastard and Net. The Hell.

[Kreegan]

Annoying is the right word here, because the Cheating Bastard build is far from unbeatable. There are opponents who almost always lose against it and opponents who trample it but there isn't much middle ground where the fights get really interesting. It's still slightly below the annoyance level of the Rage dodgers who are a purely RNG build (rolls are on your side - you win, they are against you - you lose) but that's mostly because they have bigger skill selection which allows for somewhat higher flexibility.

[weaw]

Trample. Heh.
"Trample" sounds like a Rage's skill. No?

Thanks for few words here, Kreegan.
Once again, i see that our views on the game are pretty close.

// Sad, but the "Even Numbered Rounds" technique doesn't looks like a Trample. ;) Although the technique allows to branch a strategy. So cool. And so sad now, we will lose it, just because it's not a Trample...

[Adoede]

It's still slightly below the annoyance level of the Rage dodgers who are a purely RNG build (rolls are on your side - you win, they are against you - you lose)

I humbly disagree These h'n'r rages take a bit more strategy than people think to run effectively in blood gods...which is why not many of them finish in the top 10 season by season.

As for the trixters, I've been impressed by Lahir - he's beating people I didn't think he would be able to beat. Maybe they can be effective champion builds after all. But remember that these trixters also represent the new batch of super-powered HOL glads - so to me it's no surprise that they're proving to be tough against the older HOL glads.

As far as game dynamics go, I like what the trixters have done in eliminating the ability of total tanks to consistently dominate the end-game. To me, that opens up the competition to a host of other builds that weren't so viable before. And it makes for more interesting War builds - Down and Dirty might be worth trying now after all. As I said before, I think this also means that the speed or pure offensive builds may make a comeback to competitive status in blood gods because they seem to have the best shot against the cheating trixters. Overall, more diverse competition and more variation in how seasons will progress is good for the game imho.

[weaw]

But remember that these trixters also represent the new batch of super-powered HOL glads - so to me it's no surprise that they're proving to be tough against the older HOL glads.

Ok. Have You seen another specialty representation of new-HOL, which will eat almost every existing build? Good new HOL just something about +10 for every stat considering old-HOL.
Again. The Trixters are raw. It's not because their managers are bad (Who am i to measure managers skills?) And not because the Trixters are in the "early access". But because the Trixters' managers had no time to purify their strategy/skills. We will be surprised at what Trixters can do -- i'm sure.

And it makes for more interesting War builds - Down and Dirty might be worth trying now after all.

I think, it's too optimistic. War hasn't an appropriate fighting style to be non-defensive. They are half-defensive, at least.
There's no offensive blueprints for War. And i think, it's not because we hasn't enough imagination. It just impossible for high brackets, as it seems.

About efficiency and such.
Try to look at the fights from the "aesthetic" angle. Try to respond not to the question "what the build do?" but the question "how it looks?"
Why? Because we are playing the POW for the content of the fights. Not [only] for the resulting records. You are not?
If You able to accept this position, try to answer what You see as the content of a fight Trixter vs Tank.
In my opinion, the fights Trixter vs Tank are concentrated trash. The trash like the fights Shadow vs Rage-dodger. The trash like Theatrics-speeder vs Tank. Nothing interesting. Just a 20+ rounds of the zero.
(Look at this word:

... interesting...

)

It's good that we have anti-Tank "build" now, You absolutely right. But the issue here is that a Tank has no chance against Cheating.
For example, a speeder have chance to defeat Counter-Attacker via critical at the start and so on. And it's fine.
But a Tank will be eaten by Cheater with the probability about 1. And, as it seems, regardless of the Cheater's strategy. Tank? Not. Every War (and not only War) will be eaten. Even impressive ones like Toros. I think.
Because effective and pure offensive War builds are impossible for the BG.

// (and not only War) : You may stop Your defensive-theatrics experiments, for example. It's not even funny.

These h'n'r rages take a bit more strategy than people think to run effectively in blood gods...which is why not many of them finish in the top 10 season by season.

These strategies just a tuning. Not a core...

[Kreegan]

I humbly disagree These h'n'r rages take a bit more strategy than people think to run effectively in blood gods...which is why not many of them finish in the top 10 season by season.

Yeah, that must be the reason why using one and the same strategy against them, with the same fighter, can result in a stupid loss without scoring a hit or an equally stupid win like the dodger has suddenly forgotten how to dodge.

And it makes for more interesting War builds - Down and Dirty might be worth trying now after all.

Please, do try it on some of your guys and tell us how it went. Preferably a former tank. Not that I really see how the presence of any of the S&M guys makes this awfully misplaced skill any less useless than it is.
By the way, tanks (meaning typical Wars with shields) have won something like 10-15% of the Blood Gods seasons which is very far from dominating performance.