2H rage needs a buff?

[Cynaidh]

Part of the win percentage thing I believe is that rages seem very over powered in the lower tiers it wasn't until legends/pit lords that my rages that are that high went below 75-80% win ratio, now that they are in the pit lord/warlord they are dropping rapidly, and most fights that they loose i either see a lot of CD now, or I face another Rage that got the jump on me. I would guess its even worse at higher levels as they will see more and more glads with max or near max CD.

A good example of this from my guys is Legend (58th) Varqus 120 - 21 - 6, sitting at 85% in legends, over half of those losses have been since he entered legends. Now he is a duel wield but this pattern just seems to hold true for rages in general.

[CaineDeSoulis]

Winning Percentage is kinda scewed especially considering how easy it is to go 50-60 fights in a row without a single loss. and you only start losing at around the top 10% so your record would be like 200-50. you still need 150 losses to hit 50% win loss rate. I have a glad named tourach using lvl 21 gear he's lvl 36 almost 37 in the bottom of pit lords been there a month or 2 probably realisticly wins <20% of his fights now. and still has a 63% win loss 237-139. I think the opposite is true actually just because 2handers can win in the early fights and so many arena challenges are 2handers and that 2handers can unleash some monstrous hits that *scare* other managers. in those facts the 2hander looks over powered when in reality were the Glass Cannon Build's. Extremely Inconsistent and rarely dominating but we are the master's of lucky shots.

If they're were a strategy for "if opponent has a 2handed weapon" 2h rages would be completely screwed. Literally all you would need is 10 activity 5-10 blood lust and an attacking strategy. this doesn't apply to other 2handers and people using a shield. unless your using speed 2 or higher with a shield. Prey loves fighting 2h ragers especially and i do have quite of bit experience with prey beating 2handed ragers.

[crow]

After reading these threads and hearing some of complaints...I did some research and have come up with a few conclusions. First of all, I keep hearing that a 2 hander keeps getting jumped on and is having a hard time getting a shot in. Well after burning quite a few trophies and scouting many 2 handed rages....I found one major problem with many of their builds...There armor movement skill is way too low. level 5-8 is not going to cut it period!! There are too many glads in the top tier of the game sporting 110+ agility, and in order to get your glad's shot off first is to crank up the armor movement to level 10. The only glads that will beat a level 10 AM rage to the punch is a level 10 AM and level 10 war cry War, or any glad with exceptional agility 150+ using a small weapon, with a decent amount of AM skill investment. Another skill to boost up high is barreling attack, having a prone opponent will take away some of his initiative and number of attacks..allowing you the ability to have more attack opportunity.
As for facing level 10 Create distances...yes it is frustrating when you glad gets CD'ed 3-5 rounds in row and gets slaughtered in the arena because of this...but this does not happen that often..normally it will just cost you glad a round or two. Also this skill is available to all builds.... and the more offensive minded the glad the less it goes off...if you are facing a parrying glad..yes it will go off dang near every round..but in many cases like this a 2 handed rage will get a 2nd attack in a round...I know because I have seen plenty of fights with Cypress vs plenty of 2 handed rages.

Well that is my 2 cents for the day...look forward to reading further.

[CaineDeSoulis]

if you plan on using Killshot get your armor rating to 10 if your using Berserk all the time get it to 5 or so. you'll still get the first swing a large majority of the time UNLESS your against another rager then it comes down to the AM skill. Even with what youve seen with caine crow i can still berserk and get the first swing in against eruption.

[Apoca1ypse]

It's true, percentages dont mean much when it's easy to get to the higher ranks with an amazing w/l ratio, and it'll take ages to make it look mediocre.


interesting fight between Kharn vs Alpha Ii

Alpha Ii - 2x speed 1.15 swords
Kharn - speed 1 maul

round 1
Alpha Ii - 2 swings
Kharn - 1 swing (negated by create distance)

round 2
Alpha Ii - 1 swing
Kharn - 1 swing (negated by create distance)

Round 3
Alpha Ii - 1 swing (hamstring)
Kharn - 0

round 4
Alpha Ii - 1 swing (triggers 118hp last stand)
Kharn - 1 swing (rampage)

Round 5
Alpha Ii - 1 swing
Kharn - 2 swings and the win.


total swings
Alpha Ii - 6
Kharn - 5 (2 negated by CD)

total damage
Alpha Ii - 1479
Kharn - 1500

I think Alpha Ii should have maybe a few more times given the extra weapon, but at least it was consistent. Kharn seems to have been as well, and at least got to swing rounds 1 and 2 (regardless of CD) and damage output was about even, with rage slightly ahead given that Alpha Ii's hit some injuries. so overall this match up looks fair and implies 2H rage is fine, at least vs slower war styles.


It seems again though that DW rage is the anti 2H rage.

Rarg vs Limpy.

Limpy - speed 1.45 axe, speed 1.2 mace
Rarg - speed 1 ball and chain


Round 1
Limpy - 4 swings (sunder, rampage, shock)
Rarg - 0 swings

Round 2
Limpy - 3 swings (triggers last stand for 208hp)
Rarg - 1 swing (rampage)

Round 3
Limpy - 2 swings (barreling, Sunder)
Rarg - 0 swings

Total swings
Limpy - 9
Rarg - 1

Total Damage
Limpy - 2087
Rarg - 847

This fight seems much more imbalanced. damage output and swing rate are both stupidly different. yes, this is 1 fight but i have posted a bunch of other fights with other DW ragers where the same thing happened.

[oedi]

It will aways be easy to find fights that support your side. My particular nightmare against 2h rages is when my gladiator is murdering the rage until he gets to last stand, then the rage wins the fight by landing 2 blows. That is the other side of the examples entered in this thread. 2h rages does as Dainoji says; win or loose big time.

Ive done a little bit of research myself to compare how the different styles have done lately.
I picked a date in late august and calculated the W/L ratios for 12 gladiators from then til now dec.16.
in this period all 12 gladiators has been a part of the top end game, so no easy matches to inflate your W/L ratio.
Ive listed them in best period W/L %
#1
Laharl current #2
dec.16 332-98-27 77.2%
sept.22 161-17-12 90.4% (first fight i could find on Laharl)
period record 171-81-15 67.8%

#2
Ormgar current# 4
dec. 16 484-342-31 58.6%
aug.17 258-233-18 52.5%
period record 226-109-13 67.4%

#3
Narvalo current# 3
dec.16 400.246-46 61.9%
aug.30 209-143-25 59.4%
period record 191-103-21 64.9%

#4
Eruption current #1
dec.16. 400-269-39 59.8%
aug.17. 200-152-22 56.8%
period record 200-117-17 63%

#5
Alpha II current top DW war below top 4
dec.16 446-279-26 61.5%
aug.20 241-147-13 62.1%
period record 205-132-13 60.8%

#6
Sliver 2h rage #2
dec.16 448-317-46 58.6%
aug.29 250-183-28 57.7%
period record 198-134-18 59.6%

#7
Thunder lips current top DW rage(actually that is summit but i couldnt find a refrence fight in late august)
dec.16 474-402-44 54.1%
aug.22 269-250-32 51.8%
period record 205-152-12 57.4%

#8
Kharn 2h rage #3
dec.16 451-341-41 56.9%
aug.23 253-192-32 56.8%
period record 198-149-9 57.1%

#9
Rarg 2h rage #4
dec.16 363-258-32 58.5%
aug.27 194-119-18 61.9%
period record 169-139-14 54.8%

#10
CainDeSolis 2h rage #1
dec.16. 398-273-46 59.3%
aug.13. 217-105-27 67.3%
period record 181-168-19 51.8%

#11
Bloodbath II current top 2h war below top 4
dec.16 401-313-35 56.2%
aug.31 334-151-20 60.7%
period record 167-162-15 50.8%

#12
Azure current top theatrics below top 4
dec.16 355-375-15 48.6%
sept.2 214-181-11 54.1%
period record 141-194-14 42.1%

[CaineDeSoulis]

#12
Azure current top theatrics below top 4
dec.16 355-375-15 48.6%
sept.2 214-181-11 54.1%
period record 141-194-14 42.1%

#10
CainDeSoulis 2h rage #1
dec.16. 398-273-46 59.3%
aug.13. 217-105-27 67.3%
period record 181-168-19 51.8%

didnt realise I was doing so poorly post update. Azure is going to need an re-gearing to get back into shape >.<. Tho the Knockouts are hilarious i suspect I'll have to change him to win by other means lol. Caine I'm really not sure what to do with :\.

as a side note i'm jealous of your scribe >.<

[Warmonger]

Oedi, glad to see somebody is keeping track of this stuff. I lost what little records I had been keeping when I had to wipe my HD about a month ago.

Those are some interesting numbers. That's the kind of stuff we need to be looking at to truly determine trends.

[Apoca1ypse]

ooh, timelapse records. much more useful than overall.

i gotta goto work, but i'll look at these closer when i'm back home

[Cynaidh]

That's some interesting data.

I wish we had more info about match ups though, one thing i miss about duelmasters in a case like this i could just bust out the arena reports for the past year and crunch the numbers and break down each gladiator in a win/loss record vs each style. What i mean is its nice to know Laharl has a 67.8% win loss for that period, but it be really interesting to see what his w/l vs 2h rage, w/l vs DW rage, w/l vs 2h arms, w/l vs DW arms, and w/l vs theatrics. I'd love to see that data for the top 25 or so glads.