2H rage needs a buff?

[Apoca1ypse]

so running 9/10 zerk vs thunderlips in the bloodgames today. didnt get any swings round 1, and KO'd before getting to swing round 2...

lips got 5 swings round 1 (for a total of 950 damage) and 1 swing round 2, getting a KO


Now, it was a KO, but being able to actually get some swings each round would be nice



edit: arena fight 73 with eternal. he wins with 6 swings 1st round and 1 swing 2nd round, for a total of 2000 damage. Kharn didnt swing once in either round

[Dainoji]

Kharn got stunned in round 1, that's why he didn't swing. Train up Iron Jaw, I've found it to be very useful.

[Dainoji]

So with all this activity about two-handers I just did a quick look as the "forest through the trees" perspective since I'm not emotionally invested in 2H builds and for the most part they are equal or have slightly better win percentages than the other builds. This is just a casual observation and don't expect it to change the minds of those who feel they're behind the 8-ball here, but check the top 10 two-handers in the game.

Eruption 59.5%
Cainedesoulis 59.4%
Sliver 58.9%
Bloodbath Ii 56.3%
Beta 59.3%
Kharn 57.1%
Maria 65.1%
Rarg 58.3%
Blarg 60%
General Disaray 54.2%

The average top ranked gladiator in Blood Gods and Maximus is arround 55%-60%, probably if I did the math we'd end up with about 57% or so.

Not really sure I'm seeing an unbalance here when taking a step back and looking at the numbers.

Starting passionate arguments in 3....2....1....go!

[CaineDeSoulis]

Maria uses a polearm and so does bloodbath and beta. so the top 10 2 handed RAGE gladiators

1.Caine Blood God 4
2.Sliver Blood God 7
3.Kharn Blood God 18
4.Rarg Warlord 2
5.Blarg Warlord 7
6.General Disarray Warlord 11
7.Iraname Warlord 16
8.Collosus Warlord 28
9.Gypsy Warlord 30
10.Clinton Pitlord 3

The Reason Caine is doing well is last stand 10 coupled with maximum hp bonus. meaning he has in effect 2400 hp. not to mention relying on last stand totally.

[oedi]

Ive followed this debate for a while now and i must say that im amazed that the most powerful type of gladiators in the game are asking for help to get up and ahead. These gladiators got W/L ratios on the same % like most of the other gladiators in their brackets. Its only Laharl, Narvalo and Alpha II with better ratios than the best 2h rager guys. Its some new guys with mid 60 W/L but they probably entered the high brackets with better than 70%.

With powerful gladiator i mean this:
2 H ragers are the best killers in the game. Of the 8 gladiators in the game with 40 or more kills 6 are rage, and 4 of them are 2h rage. The other 2 are theatrics.
The only gladiators currently able to beat the current last arena challenge are the 2 H ragers. I know that 2 KO theatrics beat them to it, but given enough tries youll KO any opponent sooner or later. The 2H ragers beat them down on Hp and as far as i know no other designs has been able to do so.

If it ever was a need for a fix that came with the latest tournament. More points for kills and less penalty for deaths. And the most important being less penalty for dieing, since ragers has a tendency to die more than the 2 other specialities. With the new point system we have in my view the most exciteing games yet. All the current top designs in the top 10. And since this is the topic about buffing 2h ragers id like to mention that 2h rage hold 3 spots in the top 10. The same as duel wielding ragers. 2 spots for my theatrics, and 1 spot for duel wielding War and 1 spot for 2H war.

Youve probably guessed by now that i dont think 2H ragers need any buffs or further help to get by in the Pit of War.

The Reason Caine is doing well is last stand 10 coupled with maximum hp bonus. meaning he has in effect 2400 hp. not to mention relying on last stand totally.

This is what the game is about!!!! finding combinations of skill, stats, achivements, weapons and strategy to be able to win more than your opponents. Are you actually complaining about that youve found a winning formula for your 2H rage?
And im sure there are more ways to make your 2h rage a winner.

[Apoca1ypse]

i agree, the current bloodgames format is awesome.

Also, Kharn has only started having some success after doing the same as Caine: running 1900hp. However, he still struggles with glads over 1200hp. Again, something is wrong when a 700hp buffer is required. heck, even DW glads with <1000hp are a struggle because of the differences in attack rate. oh, and Tier 5 Boss was only beaten by a lucky KO. Kharn always lost after getting in 1, maybe 2 swings if i was lucky....


personally, I believe that DW rage is the more potent rage style as it has a better shot at getting around CD etc, and sure as hell has the better matchup vs 2H rage. so to you, what justifies 2H rage as the most powerful? because you have more difficuly with them or because they are dominating ladders? If it is the latter, the question is why? is it simply because more more managers run 2H rage because that seems to have been a trend as of late.

2H war imo is also better than 2H rage in that they have access to CD and heavy armor, so they survive longer to do their swings. they also have hamstring which factors in a little. They are poorly represented in the population, yet they perform very well.

I dont want 2H rage to become "I win" but i would like them to feel like they have a chance against some builds. If i could redistribute my successful trains to another gladiator, i'd have some 2H+ DW war, and more DW rage in a heartbeat.










anyway, fundamentally my issues with 2H rage are thus:

- Create distance reams them because of their low swing rate, and this is compounded by hamstring sometimes.
- Often they dont even get to swing in round 1.

[CaineDeSoulis]

alright no buffs....i just never want to make an off handed strike with caine again....or have armour stop a 900+ Damage rampage with zero effect. or the fact CD completely negates an attack with ZERO penalty.

yes 2h ragers represent in the tops but of ragers they are by far the most plentiful throughout the game. Apocalypse will not be brought down as easily as you may think from a 2hander. Caine's been fighting apoc for a month or 2 now daily. I've gotten him down pretty low 1400hp >.<. but i can still only land 2 shots on him one of them being a level 10 rampage which does between 1/3 hp and 1/2hp but thats a trick i can only throw once. I've had to change caines stratagy and gear to be able to fight off the counterstriker's. I understand the disadvantages of using a 2handed rage. we auto lose to anything relatively fast 1.5 and faster. have a poor matchup against 2h offensive war.we are stunned/disarmed/knocked down/KO'd/blinded easier than any other gladiators and are damage is comparable to war gladiators. not to mention the injuries and deaths coming much easier and if you want to compete in the top spot's you have to build defensively with a stamina buff or as many points as you can spare into CD and never run Berserk or Killshot. Which is counter productive to ENTIRE rage design. Yes we can deal some ridiculous damage but in all the fights Ive seen its either been in Blood Lust range or an injury hit or just a Rare Monster Hit. On my Re gearing of Caine the only stat i'm going to be concerned with is STR I want to break 200 STR all my armor pieces need to add 13-14 STR and my weapon needs to add 20+. personally I'd like to to know if the law of diminishing returns on stats apply.

the 700hp buffer is not a winning strategy its a prevention of losing immediately strategy. all the extra hp has done is made my fights more fair and given me the hopes of stealing fights with a last stand trigger. if i haven't been disarmed or stunned or blinded. skill wise caine *should* be doing near maximum damage Weapon 10 Brute 10 Overwhelming Pre 9 Sunder 9 Rampage 10 last stand 10. base str 95

Zombie

Stable

Foodforlions
394-270-46

Record

266-146-16
6' 8"

Height

6' 5"
294

Weight

253
50

Level

40
Blood God

Bracket

Blood God
4th

Rank

17th
The Unmerciful

Title

The Underdog

Bone Crushing Highlights
Blow-By-Blow Details

Both warriors stare at one another before taking their positions!
R O U N D 1
>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
>> MARIA SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
CAINEDESOULIS attacks fiercely.
MARIA kicks CAINEDESOULIS in the chest knocking him out of striking range! (-Create Distance-)
MARIA moves with unbridled energy.
MARIA's BLOODSIDIAN GLAIVE slams toward CAINEDESOULIS with bone-shattering force.
MARIA looks to hamstring CAINEDESOULIS! (-Hamstring-)
The blow to CAINEDESOULIS's spine lands with monstrous force! (+417 Damage)

CAINEDESOULIS winces as he is knocked off balance and sent to the ground!
>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 4
R O U N D 2
CAINEDESOULIS almost gets up onto his feet, but gets kicked back down!
>> MARIA SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 3
MARIA jumps and leaps around CAINEDESOULIS.
MARIA makes an executioner style strike with his bloody BLOODSIDIAN GLAIVE.
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
MARIA connects with his BLOODSIDIAN GLAIVE inflicting titanic wounds! (+698 Damage)

Blood pours from CAINEDESOULIS's battle wounds!!
R O U N D 3
CAINEDESOULIS almost gets up onto his feet, but gets kicked back down!
CAINEDESOULIS is no longer affected by Hamstring
CAINEDESOULIS moves around on the ground looking for an opening to strike.
CAINEDESOULIS rams into MARIA and seeks to hammer him.
MARIA kicks CAINEDESOULIS in the chest knocking him out of striking range! (-Create Distance-)
MARIA moves with unbridled energy.
MARIA quickly attacks.
Wicked hit destroys CAINEDESOULIS's collarbone sending shards of bone flying everywhere! (+496 Damage)

>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 2
CAINEDESOULIS is bleeding very badly from several wounds!!!
CAINEDESOULIS lets forth the roar of a lion and prepares to leave it all on the sands! (-Last Stand-)
CAINEDESOULIS attempts to strike from the ground.
CAINEDESOULIS whirls around, lashing out with a vicious backhanded strike.
Awesome shot nearly caves in MARIA's skull! (+293 Damage)

>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 4
MARIA has small cuts and bruises from today's fight!
MARIA seeks to strike CAINEDESOULIS.
MARIA tries to fake CAINEDESOULIS out with a few twirls of his weapon! (-Feint-)
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
Massive shot caves in CAINEDESOULIS's chest! (+816 Damage)

>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 2
CAINEDESOULIS's life is spared as the Enforcer steps in and commands MARIA to stop!
A city official collects his bet and nods his head toward the victor!

[CaineDeSoulis]

Caine had 1900hp with a 450hp Last Stand Maria has 1091hp

After that fight theyre are no 2handed ragers in the top 10.

[Apoca1ypse]

Bloodgame Kharn vs Eternal.

kharn is in all purple gear lvl 48+. eternal is in lvl 31- 47 blues, with a lvl 41 main hand purple. guess who lost without swinging....

R O U N D 1
>> KHARN SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
>> ETERNAL SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
ETERNAL tries to bash his opponent with his MASTERWORK CLUB.
ETERNAL roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
ETERNAL smiles after the mighty hit to KHARN's forearm! (+651 Damage)

KHARN cries aloud as his body is sent crashing to the ground by the attack!
Resisted Stun Effect!
KHARN has minor cuts and bruises on his body!
ETERNAL moves with unbridled energy.
ETERNAL decides to attack with the other hand.
ETERNAL attempts to slash KHARN.
ETERNAL looks to seriously damage KHARN's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
ETERNAL's attack lands on KHARN's arm creating beastly injuries! (+276 Damage)

ETERNAL charges furiously to and fro.
ETERNAL overruns KHARN and tries to maim him.
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
Incredible smash to what used to be KHARN's stomach brings the crowd to their feet! (+482 Damage)

KHARN glances at some of the larger wounds on his body!!
ETERNAL seeks to bash his enemy with his MASTERWORK CLUB.
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
The blow to KHARN's torso lands with mammoth force! (+442 Damage)
KHARN can't take much more of this beating!!!
ETERNAL moves with unbridled energy.
ETERNAL whips around with his off hand.
ETERNAL overruns KHARN and attempts to slice his enemy.
ETERNAL is aiming at KHARN's midsection.
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
Slash to KHARN's sternum opens a sucking chest wound! (+269 Damage)
ETERNAL grins as he readies the finishing blow but the Enforcer saves the conquered warrior KHARN!
The Enforcer kicks the beaten gladiator and orders the loser to be removed from the sands!
The fight lasted 8 seconds!

[Dainoji]

I suppose this would be a good spot to post Thunder Lips's fight against Caine where Caine wins. Does that then prove 2H Rage doesn't need a boost? Posting a fight showing a loss doesn't help the argument that one side is weaker than another. If you really want to prove an argument or lend credibility to it, you'll first need to figure out a way to explain why 2H rage gladiator's win percentage is pretty much the same as the rest. I'm a huge rage fan and for awhile was sympathetic to the 2H rage cause, but after looking at the winning percentages and seeing no glaring problem, it's tough to see where the imbalance is. My guess is when a 2H rage gladiator loses he loses big time, maybe without even getting in a hit which brings up the perception that they are underpowered, but all that matters at the end of the day in regards to balance is that winning percentage and it clearly shows without a doubt that 2H rage gladiators are getting just as many wins as the other builds. It's hard to argue with such hard facts as those. Now, one could maybe argue that 2H rage are unbalanced vs certain builds and all those "wins" bringing their winning percentage up are against other builds that they do well against, but that would take some serious data mining and even then who is to say that the gladiator simply isn't spec'd to beat that difficult build who tends to beat them all the time which is why a lowest common denominator value like "winning percentage" is a pretty good indicator to use.