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  1. #11
    Elite Master Adoede's Avatar
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    Ah, I guess we're talking past each other here. Your point is that the h'n'r fights are based too much on chance. My point was that strategy building for an h'n'r is at least as nuanced as that for a power theatrics. Different conversations. Speaking of which, don't you think counterattacking power theatrics also depend too much on chance with so much emphasis on the Surprise ending skill?

    As for the Down and Dirty builds, my point was just that given the cheating trixters total dominance of slow low dps builds (aka wars), there is the possibility that the down 'n dirty builds might have the best shot against them among the war builds. If it turns out they're able to hold their own against trixters, then maybe they have a shot at being contenders one day (not holding my breath). And, as a matter of fact, I do have some DnD war experiments in the works just for the heck of it...

    My larger point is just that whether the total tanks actually won the seasons or not, they effectively held down all the speed builds and everything else not a 2H Rage for a loooong time. Many seasons ended with 2-3 tanks in the top five. That resulted in seasons where the tanks suppressed nearly everyone else except for the one or two glads who could consistently beat them. Then those one or two would duke it out throughout the season for the top spot - safely shielded from everyone else in the rankings by a wall of tanks. Cheating trixters ended this trend...which I think benefits all other builds.
    Last edited by Adoede; 02-06-2017 at 11:03 PM.
    Adoede | Tevrosin

  2. #12
    Veteran Master weaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adoede View Post
    Ah, I guess we're talking past each other here. Your point is that the h'n'r fights are based too much on chance. My point was that strategy building for an h'n'r is at least as nuanced as that for a power theatrics. Different conversations. Speaking of which, don't you think counterattacking power theatrics also depend too much on chance with so much emphasis on the Surprise ending skill?
    The difference here is that counter-attacking rely on opponent's strategy.
    So, Power-Theatrics just can't build a strategy to be equal effective against all types of Wars , for example. That's why even Arkal can't have stable results against Toros. Arkal is able to build the strategy against Toros, of course. But he will lose to the rest of BG-Wars then.
    But the dodge will works anyway. Regardless of the opponent. Except the cases when this "RNG-collapse" happens.
    So, Rage-dodger can't control his "luck". But Power-Theatrics are able to choose which type of opponents he will loose...

  3. #13
    Elite Master Kreegan's Avatar
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    Ah, I guess we're talking past each other here. Your point is that the h'n'r fights are based too much on chance. My point was that strategy building for an h'n'r is at least as nuanced as that for a power theatrics. Different conversations. Speaking of which, don't you think counterattacking power theatrics also depend too much on chance with so much emphasis on the Surprise ending skill?
    There is no comparison between these two, the dodgers rely on their dodges MUCH more than the Power Theatrics do on Surprise Ending (the skill isn't even a must for the build, it's just useful). While I agree that the dodgers become better with some added strategy, they're still greatly RNG-dependant.
    The single difference between a War with Armoured Fortress and one with Down & Dangerous is that the latter lacks the extra armour bonuses but performs better when knocked down. That's literally it. Nothing stops you from building a semi-offensive War with Armoured Fortress, I have two in Blood Gods, and in the end he will perform much better than his Down and Dangerous comrade. Nate just put that skill in the wrong place, end of story.
    As for the "pure tanks" - these Cheating Bastard Trixters are exactly like them - they always win against certain builds and lose to others so depending on what variety of gladiators you have in Blood Gods, they can dominate or be mediocre. In both cases they aren't particularly entertaining, just like the tanks.
    Last edited by Kreegan; 02-07-2017 at 09:20 AM.

  4. #14
    Elite Master Adoede's Avatar
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    I don't see any more reason to complain about dodgers using their build strengths to evade vs. power theatrics using their counterattack tactics to overwhelm opponents with their extra attacks. Take counterattack away from the power theatrics and they become one of the worst builds in the game. No other build is so dependent on one tactic.

    Point being - every style has its strengths and weaknesses and good managers know how to take advantage of a particular glads unique strengths. Adding the trixters has forced wars to become more diverse and even though they also play the endurance game, they do it in a way that's different from when the tanks did it. Trixter tanks are vulnerable to high dps builds and bleeders in a way that the war tanks were not. Thus...the addition of them to the game evens the playing field a bit.

    And speaking of particular builds always winning against certain other builds...what do you think of speeders vs. power theatrics? Pretty one-sided if you ask me. Not that I'm complaining about that - I think that sort of tactical nuance is what makes this game good. When someone comes up with a build that dominates nearly everyone else, it's a fun challenge to come up with a build that will counter it...that's pretty much the name of the game here. Blood gods seasons seem to ebb and flow with some builds dominating some seasons while others dominate the next. That is not a sign of over-powered boring builds so much as a sign of good managers who've learned to take advantage of the strengths of their builds. It's up to the rest of us to counter them and keep things interesting.
    Adoede | Tevrosin

  5. #15
    Elite Master Kreegan's Avatar
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    Again, there is a big difference. Counter Attack you need to fine tune, you can't use equally well against all builds (try it against a 2H War for example) and most of all - it's a fighting choice which you set up manually. What do you "configure" on the dodger exactly? The RNG is on the background.

    Adding Trixters hasn't forced Wars to be any different, at least not yet, let alone make them pick Down and Dangerous (why would they do that, are they getting knocked down more often now?). Tanks were not that great even before the introduction of the Cheating Bastard build, now this is just even more pronounced.

    What I find wrong in you way of thinking is that if the game already has some pretty much "pre-defined" winners in certain match ups, then it can have even more of them simply 'cause there are precedents. That's not what makes the game fun. Fights where either gladiator can win based on skills, strategy and maybe even a little luck make the game fun, not knowing what will happen before the fight even starts.

  6. #16
    Elite Master Adoede's Avatar
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    There's nothing wrong in my way of thinking - we simply disagree. I respect you are entitled to your opinion on the matter as much as I am to mine. And as the conversation is starting to go in circles, thanks for your always thoughtful input and I've got nothing new to add.
    Adoede | Tevrosin

  7. #17
    Veteran Master weaw's Avatar
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    Adoede.
    The conversation is circled not because of some "disagree". But because You ignored the answers to the assertions which You said.

    You said about Down&Dangerous, got few of objections and ignored them.
    You said about the comparison dodge vs counter-attack, got an answers and ignored them.
    You said the game gives new features for new builds. Again, You ignored the answer for this.

    Course, if You ignored the answers, this dialog is senseless...

  8. #18
    Elite Master Adoede's Avatar
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    Weaw

    Of course the same could be said the other way around...which is why I decided this conversation was no longer worth engaging in.

    I could continue on about how every build has to adjust to Wars - even dodgers, so the rebuttal is not valid. Power Theatrics still rely totally on Counterattack to dominate just as much as dodgers do on dodge.
    I could continue on about how I didn't say down and dangerous was an amazing skill - just that it is more viable now than before.
    I could continue on about how there are no pre-defined winners in a definite sense - only that managers haven't found the proper ways to counter certain builds...like how power theatrics used to get owned by tanks...until they began to finally crack that code.

    But it's apparent to me that you have your opinions and aren't hearing my points to mitigate those complaints. So the conversation is no longer fruitful. I'm not ignoring your answers. I just understand your points and disagree and realize we simply have a difference of perspective that isn't going to get resolved with more repetition of our points back and forth.

    I've great respect for what Kreegan (and Oedi) have added to this game, which is why I'd rather let this end with a mutually respectful "agree to disagree" - which is what I was trying to do. Don't keep digging for a conflict where there is none.
    Adoede | Tevrosin

  9. #19
    Elite Master oedi's Avatar
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    lately ive been trying get a win against our new friends in blood gods the trixsters, and ive failed miserably. I actually dont think ive won a single match up. but today when i read the match against Mensa I lost all hope for a pure war to ever beat a trixter with cheating bastard.
    please read todays fight #5
    With 200 or more bleeding for 20 rounds i still lost. I had at the most 270 bleed on Mensa and he still gained hp between rounds.
    I have no means of doing enough dpm with a 2h, this is by far the best dpm ive been able to do. I might be able to tweak in a little more with fine tuned gear, but im not sure its that much more to gain.
    the nature of the game is that some match ups are poor and others are favorable, but ive never been unable to atleast get a few wins in against the bad match ups.
    (Briteron_by), Theatrics, imperial guards, (subjects), MOTU

    Manager since December 2010.

  10. #20
    Veteran Master weaw's Avatar
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    I saw 400+ health regen per round with Cheating Bastard. So, bleeding doesn't looks like a powerfull method against Cheating. Perhaps, Slayer could do more via Blood Bath.
    But in general, only stable and really high damage per round could be helpfull here, in my opinion.

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