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Thread: Seasons Change?

  1. #11
    The Overlord Nate's Avatar
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    I'll think about some more viable suggestions later. But I just wanted to say, Nate, if you really think it would be more fun, I think we're all willing to give it a go - especially if you've already put in much of the work for it. We trust you with your baby - sure it will be beyond what any of us expect...
    Thanks for the taking the time to think on it. To be fair, I could be totally wrong. I wouldn't be the first designer/artist/lead to get out of touch with the core or base. Sometimes creators get bored with something but the players do not or think moving in a particular direction is good but the players do not, etc. I'm actually starting to think that in my attempt to make PoW fun and attractive for as many people as possible has instead watered it down and the true solution would have been (or is) to break PoW into three similar but different games. One for each segment of the player base that I think I've identified. Another idea I'm tossing around.

    Good luck in the Pit!

    -Nate-

  2. #12
    Elite Master Kreegan's Avatar
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    As for knockdowns, this thread isnt meant to be about them.... but Kreegan, play around with your knockdown triggers/strats. You'll be surprised how fast you can get back up, even with a non-HoL in full plate.
    I do have a trigger for such situations actually, offensive, with 10 activity. It doesn't help one bit against anyone but the slowest gladiators.

    Anyway, not meaning to hijack the thread. I believe most people are not against the idea for team fights in Blood Gods but are worried about the issues that might result from changing the format. Let's admit it, the late game has so many variables in it that it is very difficult to balance. 1:1 fights allows you to construct a strategy around 1 gladiator in an attempt to make it successful against the majority of the other gladiators in duels. This can take some time, even if you assume an already fully equipped gladiator, which takes a lot of time on its own. Adding additional fighters to the combat increases the complexity of the task further. The rock-scissor-paper mechanics that the combat system is largely based on mean that, depending on the combinations, you can have teams which completely dominate other teams, even if the gladiators who compose them can fare relatively well in duels and in other scenarios might be more successful or unsuccessful. Increasing the number of participants in each fight also lowers the value of each individual fighter and his tactical contribution. In the end you might have situations where all of your work to develop a good fighter is wasted because the matchups - teammates and opponents - are just not in your favour objectively. And people are used to their favourite pets and hate seeing them lose without being able to do anything about it.

    This is hardly a must though. I generally like the idea about the segregation between the duels and the team fights (Blood Gods and Blood Games) and think that it can work out quite well. When I have the time, I can give some suggestions how to compose the team format, if you are interested. I suppose the other players can contribute as well. At the very least, we can give it a go for one season, see how it goes and if the flaws are too many and appear to be too hard to fix, I suppose you can always restore the old format.

  3. #13
    Elite Master Adoede's Avatar
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    As promised, here are some suggestions for possible Team-play Dynamics

    I agree with SOTC that team strategies would help make the team game more interesting. Honestly, just starting to work this out makes it clear how massive of a game-dynamics change this team strategy stuff would be…

    Anyhoo, here are some I thought might be interesting. Each glad gets 5 new team triggers in addition to their 5 individual triggers.

    Team Strategy Triggers:
    4 teammates remain
    3 teammates remain
    2 teammates remain
    1 teammate remains
    0 teammates remain
    5 opponents remain
    4 opponents remain
    3 opponents remain
    2 opponents remain
    1 opponent remains
    Your best offensive glad went down
    Your best defensive glad went down
    Opponent’s best offensive glad went down
    Opponent’s best defensive glad went down
    Opponent’s Rages are down
    Opponent’s Theatrics are down
    Opponent’s Wars are down

    Team Strategy Actions:
    Protect your strongest link (own team highest HP glad)
    Protect your weakest link (own team lowest HP glad)
    Engage opponent’s strongest link (highest HP glad)
    Engage opponent’s weakest link (lowest HP glad)
    Engage the strongest offensive opponent (highest Attack Power)
    Engage the weakest offensive opponent (lowest Attack Power)
    Engage the strongest defensive opponent (highest Defense)
    Engage the weakest defensive opponent (lowest Defense)
    Engage the Rages
    Engage the Theatrics
    Engage the Wars
    Hide behind the crowd (reduce chance of being targeted)
    Step into the spotlight (increase chance of being targeted)
    Adoede | Tevrosin

  4. #14
    Elite Master Adoede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    I'm actually starting to think that in my attempt to make PoW fun and attractive for as many people as possible has instead watered it down and the true solution would have been (or is) to break PoW into three similar but different games. One for each segment of the player base that I think I've identified. Another idea I'm tossing around.
    -Nate-
    I imagine the three distinct gamer bases Nate refers to as being:

    1) Hardcore 1v1 PvP players

    2) People who want to be able to do something in the game constantly (Gauntlet/Conquests)

    3) People who like the team play dynamics (Gauntlet/Conquest/Battle Royale)

    I like all three aspects of the game, but honestly, the one that drew me in and keeps me in is the 1v1 PvP aspect. I occasionally play the conquests mainly to try to keep up with the Joneses in the PvP game. And I think a team-play game could be interesting if new team triggers were added. But the 1v1 PvP game is what I am committed to.

    So, if I was Nate, what would I do?

    I would put the greatest focus on improving the quality of the 1v1 PvP environment to make it the best in the world – bar none. That might mean improving the sense of competitive balance; improving the fight-dialogues to make them more realistic and exciting; speeding the release of Shadows & Myst; speeding the release of the new tier 6 skills; adding customization options for glads appearance…

    I would put development of other areas to explore in conquests on hold because the Underbelly is enough to help people gear/token up for the main PvP game.

    And I would eventually implement a new team-play game and team strategies as a side tournament running concurrently with the main PvP arena game.

    But maybe that’s just me
    Last edited by Adoede; 08-12-2014 at 12:02 AM.
    Adoede | Tevrosin

  5. #15
    Pit Master Dainoji's Avatar
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    I like the idea Nate but also have reservations. I do agree a return to the old school way or blood games way would be exciting and make each fight more meaningful. I think the problem with team fights currently is as a player I have limited control over what happens and the fights are chaotic. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest others aren't disinterested but are directly and indirectly saying they want control like you have given us for the one on one fights if you are going to make teams a central part now in the end game.

    Having teams composed of just one stable and fillers when needed would be easiest. Letting us make teams or holding a draft would be more interesting and complex. If one and only one player controls a team it makes setting team strategies easy. If a team is mixed players will need some way to set strategies collaboratively.

    For team play perhaps there is a separate screen for team strategy. This could be simple or as complex as you want. Starting with simple and going to complex I have these suggestions.

    Team Formations
    Players choose some kind of formation that they want their glads to assume and assign glads to each position in the formation. Each position has advantages and disadvantages and inherent mechanics built in. For example maybe one formation looks like an X or how basketball teams set up. two in front, one in the middle and two in the back. In this formation, the only gladiators that can attack or be attacked are the two in front. If the center has a 2H or pole arm weapon they may also attack. The two in the back hang out and wait, they are like support or replacements. When a gladiator in the front falls, one of the gladiators in the back takes his place. Using this formation I can already see possible strategies. Put two tanks in the front and tire the other team out as they try and break through. Or place some high damage glads in front and tanks in the back so once they come forward they can exhaust their opponents easier. I'm sure there are a lot more possibilities. Other formations could have their own set of built in rules. Maybe the position in the formation has X % chance to be targeted and things of that nature. These percentages would be fixed. Or maybe each team has a set of options that must total 100 and the player sets the values for each position.

    Team Strategy Triggers
    This might be the most micromanaging and complex conceptually but all the pieces are already in the game I think so maybe it is easy for you to do. Each gladiator is given a team fight matrix with 5 rows just like we have now for an individual gladiator. The team strategy has triggers that make sense in a team fight and when a team trigger is true it sets the glad to use individual fight strategy A or B or C and so on. In this scenario a glad would essentially have five separate fight strategy matrices that are used for team play and switches between them based on what is going on in the team fight which is controlled by the higher level team strategy matrix. This would give a high degree of control to the player.

    Hybrid
    Have triggers at the team level that are set that allow the team to change formation or shuffle positions during the battle. This could offer some interesting play. At the start of round two swap the front left glad with the back left. If team is losing change formation to free for all allowing all glads to attack and be attacked. This is prefaced on the assumption that formations offer different strategic options.

    That's all I've got for now, maybe others can read this and jam on it.
    Last edited by Dainoji; 08-12-2014 at 12:15 AM.
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  6. #16
    Pit Master Apoca1ypse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    There are two possibilities for team construction:

    1) Force teams to only be from one stable. This is fine and makes sense but what to do when a stable doesn't have 5 gladiators in Blood Gods?

    2) Allow players to create teams and fill them with anyone's gladiators based on communication with other players. So, you could create a team, put your two BG gladiators on it and then maybe talk with other players with less than five gladiators, or maybe another player doesn't mind breaking his or her stable up into a couple of teams.

    In both cases a mechanism needs to be in place to fill in empty slots. My idea here is to have the Arena supply gladiators in this case and these gladiators would be top shelf and equipped to match. This would also allow a new player with just one gladiator to make his own team and be able to compete with the best of the best.
    I didnt have my thinking cap on when I originally commented. Both these solutions seem great, but I think the 2nd option would be the more "new player" friendly. If we get to choose the gladiators from a pool so that we can find something complimentary to our current gladiators, taht would be extra cool. My biggest concern is the lack of control. the more gladiators involved, the more complexity you have going on in the fight. the daily top 10 fights show that quite well, and they were also chaotic when stables fought as teams in those. Add to that the lack of control over the strategies of allied gladiators, and things get more uncertain.

    Speaking of strategies, I think a separate page for "team fight strategies" would be great. these could be used for gauntlet and conquest fights, which is a nice perk

    One thing that I think could be a cool alternative for team fights is a 5v5 shootout, where gladiators fight 1v1, and the winner continues on with their current hp/endurance (or some amount reinstated)

    As for oldschool 1v1, that has a huge nostalgia pull for me, so I'd love to see it brought back in some capacity outside of the blood games. I dont see it as a priority though, as most of the player base wasnt around at that time so that 'hook' isnt there for them.


    Lastly, while I think a team format has merit, I'm not sure I want it to be the end game for arena fights. Having team fights and oldschool 1v1 be put in as a separate competition (like the blood games) is the most appealing "place" to me as opens up new facets of gameplay, but also leaves the current ones in place. I believe that gives people a choice on where to focus their energies, and play towards what they find is the most appealing aspect of Pit of War.
    Last edited by Apoca1ypse; 08-12-2014 at 09:10 AM.
    Do you want to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentation of their women? Then follow the link below!

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  7. #17
    Elite Master oedi's Avatar
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    To me this game is a 1 vs 1 duel game, all the rest is just add ons to kill time while you wait for the main event. I was so excited when I read that you wanted to bring back the fixed schedule all the way down to the part about team fights. I wont say that I hate it, atm I just ignore it because its current format is dead boring. I cant remember last time I took the time to read a top 10 fight, and the conquest Ive pushed through to grind equipment.(thank god I dont need to do that anymore)
    I think maybe it would be wise to start with 2vs2 and build up, instead of start with a crowd and go down. Right now when I try envision 5vs5 it just becomes a mess, but 2vs2 looks kinda cool.
    But what I most want is to see the single most powerful gladiator on top of a ranking of the best of the best in the realm, I think blood gods atm serves as a good messure for this.
    Another possibility might be that all the blood god teams gets invited to pick 1 of their glads to be their champion to participate in a round robin fixed schedule tournament, or maybe even close it further to each blood god manager pick 1 champion to fight for them. This tournamet will then be run alongside the regular season, just like the blood games.
    Last edited by oedi; 08-12-2014 at 11:06 AM.
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    Manager since December 2010.

  8. #18
    Master Sotc's Avatar
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    Dain's Team Formations and Team Strategy Triggers are spot-on. I've played a few other games with good teamplay and the positioning of your squad and the team dynamic (who to defend, who to put offensive pressure on, when to push through resistance, when to pull back to regroup) were very key and contributed a lot to the fun of those games.

  9. #19
    The Overlord Nate's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback. As I suspected there are multiple groups represented in the game each with their own list of likes and dislikes that differs by varying degrees from the others. Perhaps the inactivity, ambivalence and negativity that sometimes surfaces from various managers in the end game is a natural phenomenon at that point in a game's life. In any case, carry on as usual, I think there is enough differing opinions that warrant nothing changing for now until I can figure something else out. I have plenty of other irons in the fire.

    Good luck in the Pit!

    -Nate-

  10. #20
    Elite Master Adoede's Avatar
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    If things are going to stay the same for next season, I'd suggest one small change.

    Having glads reset their fight queue each week is resulting in some glads getting extra fights every week because they are near the front of the queue and thus get more challenges during the week. This is a disadvantage for glads that are at the end of the queue since they'll get less challenges - which turns out to be a significant ratings points factor as the season progresses.

    I suggest the simple change that instead of resetting the fight queue every week, just have glads continue their fight queue from where they finished the previous week. The newly promoted glads from Primus will just join the queue somewhere and get incorporated into the cycle. This way, when the week resets, people at the front of the queue aren't getting an unfair advantage.

    I know from experience that my glads typically go through 1 full turn in the queue and perhaps about 5-10 glads into the next queue before the week is done. When the reset happens on Tuesday, I re-fight those 5-10 glads again...which accounts for why some glads have so many more total fights than others.

    This simple change paired with Nate's new "no extra fights using trophies" rule will result in the most balanced "Seasons" to date.
    Adoede | Tevrosin

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