2H styles suffering. What are people's thoughts?

[Kreegan]

Not that I doubt these statistics, there are probably quite accurate, but... is there a way to check how:
1. The top 10 speed (Agility) gladiators fare against the top 10 power (Strength) gladiators. The point is to rule out fights between orange-clad monsters and newbies in Blood Gods which are no fights at all.
2. The top 5 Elaar speed gladiators fare vs. the top 5 Strength gladiators no matter the race. The point is to check if the Elaars don't have just a little more armour penetration and de facto extra critical power than they should.

[Cynaidh]

Because everyone was so loving and kind in this thread I went ahead and crunched some data. The results were very interesting. I won't be sharing the details of the data because I'm a big fat meanie, but here is what I will tell you.

If we assume a specialty plus a weapon type they can use equals a "build" (e.g. rage + blade, war + pole arm, etc) we get 12 builds. Two handed rage enjoys the 3rd best win ratio in Blood Gods when matched up against the other 11 builds. Agility based weapons and strength based weapons both have 3 spots in the top 6 and no, agility based weapons don't hold the top 3. There are a couple of builds that could use a small nudge, but they aren't any of the ones that have been mentioned as being lacking. I hate it when data contradicts casual observations!

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

No details....

Even little tidbits like what the stat ranges where you tested? Did you go as high as 250 in the primary stat? Like 100-100-250-100-100-100-100 vs 250-100-100-100-100-100-100, well you get the idea of what I mean.

[crow]

My guess is A/M theatrics, 2-handed wars & blade wars are gonna get a boost.

[Nate]

No details....

Even little tidbits like what the stat ranges where you tested? Did you go as high as 250 in the primary stat? Like 100-100-250-100-100-100-100 vs 250-100-100-100-100-100-100, well you get the idea of what I mean.

The type of test you are asking for was done back when the skill trees and fight engine changed and I was happy with the results. The data used for the test I just did were using actual fights over the past many months.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Nate]

I'm about to hop on a long flight. I'll share some more details when I'm settled in again.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Cynaidh]

Very cool, hope you have a safe flight.

[Apoca1ypse]

Fly safe Nate

[Narol]

And even more important, land safe, Nate !

[Nate]

Thanks for the well wishes guys, I appreciate it.

Regarding the recent data, let me walk you through what I did. I break up all gladiators into 1 of 12 builds (Rage-blade, rage-axe/mace, rage-2H, war-blade, etc.) Shield using gladiators are treated as just that regardless of their main hand weapon. I then record the results of every matchup in the arena which can then be displayed in a 12x12 matrix. I am able to look at the data for a certain level or level range, or blood god gladiators only. I also track the specialty matchups at a higher level such as rage vs war, war vs theatrics, etc. The optimal balance would be if all matchups were 50% and while we don't have that we are very close, closer than I thought it would ever be. Where things diverge a little is in Blood Gods (although I'm still happy with the spread save a few minor outliers) and this is for a handful of reasons I think.

As a gladiator is making their way to the top of the arena difference areas of what makes a gladiator become more important. In the early stages of a gladiator's career attributes will be very important. Around mid career their skills start to come more into play, their strategies start opening up and gear options become more interesting and so forth. Toward their late career around Primus everything really starts to matter. Attributes are important, good strategies are important, proper gear selection that complements the build is important, careful choosing of opponents using challenges can be important, etc. Up until this point a gladiator's opponents are vast and varied and the meta game has a moderate influence on things. Once a gladiator is promoted into the Blood Gods bracket everything changes and everything matters. At the top where the very best reside the entire journey of a gladiator's career comes to a head. All the skills, plans and knowledge of the Master, the man or woman "behind the curtain" converge.

In the Blood Gods bracket we sometimes see data points that are different than in other brackets. This is because in the Blood Gods bracket there are a smaller number of gladiators and Masters and the meta game is different. For example, a build that is doing well in Blood Gods may not be out of the ordinary in the other brackets. Why might this be? A very obvious reason is their counter build(s) are absent or aren't up to snuff. One of the more dominant builds in the Blood Gods bracket currently has at least three builds that give it trouble. Those three builds are currently under represented for whatever reason. Think of the stories you heard about nature when a new species is introduced or removed from an ecosystem. What happens? The species fight until an equilibrium is reached. This equilibrium lasts until something changes (e.g. a new species is introduced, changes or is removed). Another story the data tells is some builds are faring very well vs a handful of other builds and those "losing" builds are more abundant leading to more victories for the "winning" build in that scenario. The knee-jerk conclusion is the winning builds are over powered when in fact the reality is they are simply enjoying a slight advantage based on the current conditions of the environment. We also have a bit of "monkey see, monkey do" situation which is understandable. If we see something that is successful we mimic it in the hopes that we too will be successful and in the process compound the issue. This will continue until a disruptive force changes it. To add another wrinkle to our tale two identical or near identical gladiators under the management of two different Masters behave quite different based on their choice of strategies. I saw a few examples of this when looking into some other data and doing tests of my own.

We all have our opinions and observations and that is part of the fun. It is also why I do not lay out definitive results before our community because I think the journey of discovery is more fun than the destination. Having said that, when I do find data that tells us a gross imbalance is present it gets addressed and there are some minor tweaks that I have on the todo list right now. In conclusion, there is no one switch, lever or button that will turn a gladiator into a champion, rather it is like an orchestra where each instrument and group working together in concert is important to the whole if one is to produce beautiful music.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Kreegan]

Thanks for the high level overview, Nate, but I think that you're looking from the clouds and see only the big picture in this case. The numbers might seem equal when you compare hundreds of gladiators, this build might seem about as good as that build because they both have similar win-loss ratio in general and so on, but on individual level that doesn't really matter. I'll elaborate below (I'm still interested in how the top representatives of each gladiator type of the ones discussed in this topic fare against each other though).

As a manager of one team (or several, but that's more of an exception), you don't care if the gladiator who you have spent months to train, equip, etc. fares in general, because he doesn't fight in general but against individual opponents. When one type from these opponents manages to consistently beat your gladiator no matter what you try, while at the same time the fights against pretty much all other types seem fairly even and the strategy really matters there, you can't help but get the impression that the type in question has built-in advantages offered by the game and not by his/her strategy and skill selection. And when that overpowering type of gladiator also has a fairly easy time getting to the top spots in the top bracket and staying there for a long time, your impression of imbalance is just getting reinforced. So much about the 2D thinking of us, casual managers.

Now, what really matters in a game is whether you're having fun or not. For me, the fun is ruined when I don't see any results from the time and efforts spent on some gladiator (I don't have such gladiators, mind you, even the worst performers aren't totally hopeless and I'm enjoying their performance enough not to sell/retire them, so this is just an extreme example to illustrate the point). Say, you have your lad in Blood Gods, he manages to win against a few guys, loses against some other, casual stuff, but for some reason he's nearly stuck because he constantly gets a beating from one fairly numerous group of bullies. That group also gets bigger and bigger because people see that it's cool to belong to it and join. OK, you change strategies, you try to adapt, you even manage to squeeze a few victories against that group - with luck or by sacrificing some efficiency against other builds. Then you notice another trend. Even if your lad has finally found a way to at least partially stand his ground against the bullies, he still keeps losing quite often due to random events. In one fight he gets knocked out in round 1. In another fight he gets knocked down quite early and refuses to get back up until he's severely beaten. In a third fight he gets serious injury from the first strike he receives and dropped by the second or the third strike which hits the same spot. After that he gets stunned in round 1 and starts round 2 with 60% less health. And then, in the end of this cool series, he finally fights against one of the bullies without getting disabled at the very beginning and what do you know - the battle is somewhat even but he still loses due to 1 fumble or one resisted War Cry which doesn't even deal damage or because he decides to throw away his weapon instead of landing a finishing blow. Needless to say, you don't give damn how the kins of your fighter perform in general after such a nice sequence. As you said it yourself, it's not just one thing, it's a whole orchestra and that applies to one's individual game experience as well but the result might be the opposite of what you see top-down when you analyze the masses.

The problem is that you can't do much to influence the outcome of such fights and having a gladiator which by design gets quite some hits before he starts returning hits. If you tank at the beginning, you risk getting 150-200 bleeding by round 2. Tanking doesn't save you from Sweep or Barreling Attack, nor from KOs. If you parry, you risk the same things on top of getting a few attacks through your blocking attempts if your fighter isn't very defensive. If you go for offensive, the lower initiative results in several blows and some critical effects on your fighter's head before he can fight back. On top of all that, many of the speed gladiators punch through medium/heavy armour without much problems and might drop a gladiator in light armour before he/she can even respond. In short, if you run one of them slow, hard hitting lads, you risk much more than if you run a fast, usually also hard hitting fella. And that shows.

In the end, we can wait for several months for the "natural balancing" to bring the counter-builds of the current Blood Gods finest to the bracket but what happens in the meantime? Should we be content with the secondary roles of our fighters, the stream of losses and the generally negative experience? And how can one know that the "natural enemies" of the speed gladiators will ever show up in Blood Gods in sufficient numbers? Right now the trend is actually to have more and more speed guys in the bracket - new entries and existing rebuilt gladiators. The end game is getting monotonous and downright frustrating at times. Is there really nothing that can be done about this?