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  1. #71
    Legendary Master Cynaidh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    I am able to look at the data for a certain level or level range, or blood god gladiators only.
    Hmm can you do say the top 50 glads of blood gods and do the same 12 by 12?

    That's what i personally look at to see how styles are doing, to me these are glads who have their legendaries or who are excelling without having all of them, and i don't want to count glads that are fresh to the blood gods who don't have any gear and might still not be full builds.

    Looking at the top 10, top 25 and the top 50 of Blood Gods right now you have:

    Top 10:
    Speed Theatrics (blade and exotic) - 3
    Power Theatrics (mace) - 0
    Shield Theatrics (any weapon) - 1
    2H Warrior - 0
    Pole-arm Warrior - 1
    Sword Duel Warrior - 0
    Mace Duel Warrior - 2
    Shield Warrior (any weapon) - 1
    sword duel rage - 1
    mace duel rage - 1
    2h rage - 0

    Top 25:
    Speed Theatrics (blade and exotic) - 4
    Power Theatrics (mace) - 3
    Shield Theatrics (any weapon) - 2
    2H Warrior - 0
    Pole-arm Warrior - 1
    Sword Duel Warrior - 0
    Mace Duel Warrior - 4
    Shield Warrior (any weapon) - 3
    sword duel rage - 3
    mace duel rage - 2
    2h rage - 3

    Top 50:
    Speed Theatrics (blade and exotic) - 13
    Power Theatrics (mace) - 4
    Shield Theatrics (any weapon) - 4
    2H Warrior - 1 (Bruce Willis hanging in at 42nd place)
    Pole-arm Warrior - 3
    Sword Duel Warrior - 0
    Mace Duel Warrior - 6
    Shield Warrior (any weapon) - 5
    sword duel rage - 7
    mace duel rage - 3
    2h rage - 4

    So whats drawn attention to the "speed builds" is that they make up 40% of the top 50 (speed theatrics + agility rages) and like Kreegen pointed out with how critical effects, knockdowns, and just not attacking if your glad gets hit several times before his time to act, it does get quite old going against them all the time. That seems off balance since these are 3 builds (sword rage, sword theatrics, exotic theatrics - but even then most sword and theatrics build are the same basic build just different weapon, you could argue that is 1 build really) out of 12, so they should have a 25% share of the top 50 if everything was completely even across the board.

    Now as for what should be beating these guys being under-represented there are some clearly under-represented builds.... duel sword warriors well there isn't a single one, 2H warriors, duel mace rages, and Pole-arm Warriors are the ones that have 3 or less in the top 50. I don't see any of these doing that great vs a speed theatrics except for maybe the pole-arm warrior if he can get some hits in, and who knows on the duel sword warrior, i know Prinny tried numerous builds on one with amazing stats and couldn't get him above 1000 ranking in blood gods, but i don't have a lot of faith there that they would counter the speed builds. Two-Hand warriors i have seen get eaten alive by speed builds and as for the duel mace rages maybe I should un-retire my army of duel mace rages in AB Gold just to see how they would do.
    Last edited by Cynaidh; 02-21-2014 at 09:12 AM.
    Manager of the Gold Stables: Ab and Ba Gold

  2. #72
    Elite Master Adoede's Avatar
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    Fascinating breakdown Cynaidh.

    I'm on both sides of this discussion, so here's my 2 cents.

    The natural counter-builds for the speedsters are counterattacking theatrics (both mace wielding and blade/exotic wielding), and defensive wars in full heavy armor. Whenever my speed glads match up with one of them its almost always an automatic loss (unless I get a lucky knockout). The speed builds do very well against all types of Rages and versus still developing offensive DW mace wars/agility polearm wars. But well-developed offensive wars (Arrrrrpirate, Belca, Erupt) destroy my speed builds all the time.

    The main challenge for offensive war glads is that it takes soooo long for them to gear up to be competitive. But at least when they finally get to the end-game, they are competitive with any other build out there...maybe even dominant.

    For rages, however, things are a bit more difficult. They will almost always lose the initiative battle, so they must take the first few hits before they can return fire. But since the Rage class has little in the way of defense, they are basically sitting ducks at the blood gods level. Only chance is to absorb the first few blows and then hit so hard the opponent is knocked into next week - something offensive wars perhaps do better because of their armor and tanking ability. This is why Lord Brutish stacking +302 block rank makes him effective (not quite dominant, but at least pretty effective). When my DW rage was in Primus, he dominated speed builds because he had high enough agility (and therefore defense) to lessen the speed builds attack bonus against him. Speed builds would hit for maybe 50 pts or less...and then get walloped by him. In blood gods, that agility gap expands to the point his defense is worthless. Speed builds hit in blood gods for 200+ per shot and get more crits too because the attack power vs defense gap has widened considerably. Point being, end-game Rages need to be capable on defense to be viable...but don't have many means to do that. They can stack equipment with block rank or stack equipment with HP boosts...that's about it. But that comes at the expense of better stats from less optimized gear.

    A fully optimized Rage build could perhaps eventually be nearly as competitive as other fully optimized builds, but it is the mid-tier blood gods game where the imbalance is most keenly felt. The speed builds have an advantage in the mid-tier game because they can get optimized gear more quickly since they mainly just need agility. The other builds need to be patient in selecting their gear - even selling the majority of orange gear pieces they get in gauntlets and conquests because it doesn't match what they need to be competitive in the end-game. Getting hammered while they are in this long gear-up phase is what is no fun.

    My suggestion: Perhaps a boost to the Hardened Skin skill would make it more effective in the blood gods end-game allowing Power rages to be more effective vs. speed builds. At the moment it doesn't seem to make much of a difference - even at rank 10. Either that or adding dodging ability to the rage's armor movement to boost their defense and achieve the same result.

    In my opinion, a well balanced end game means that each style has skills within its tree to allow your glad to be effective against any other style and build. You may have to re-train your glad to be more effective against a certain build, but at least the possibility to do that should be there. If there's nothing in the rage tree that allows them to counter-balance the speed builds advantages, that style is inherently disadvantaged. Yes, speed builds are the natural enemy of the power rage builds, but it would be fun if there were ways the rages could counter this more effectively.
    Adoede | Tevrosin

  3. #73
    The Overlord Nate's Avatar
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    All very interesting perspectives and opinions, thank you for taking the time to share them. I feel lucky to have such an amazing community. I look forward to seeing how the ebb and flow continues to evolve over the next few months and have no doubt many a creative and keen Master will keep us on our toes!

    Good luck in the Pit!

    -Nate-

  4. #74
    Legendary Master Cynaidh's Avatar
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    Top 10 of this months blood games 80% agility weapons.
    Manager of the Gold Stables: Ab and Ba Gold

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