Bleeding vs. Heavy Armour/Armoured Fortress

[Kreegan]

So this is a bit silly - one can constantly observe fights where a Theatrics (in much rarer cases a War) scores very low damage hits vs. a heavily armoured War but inflicts bleeding which can easily get above 150-200 points in a few rounds. Needless to say, the War drops soon after. The armour just adds encumbrance and while it protects against big hits, it does next to nothing against bleeding triggers. This basically makes the defensive War builds useless vs. most Theatrics builds which at some point will take Gratuitious Violence and probably Bloody Spectacle.

Given the above, going for Armoured Fortress in full Heavy Armour doesn't seem very attractive any more. Such build performs decently vs. some Rages but is extremely vulnerable to bleeders and with some strategy adjustment can be handled even by "standard" damage-dealing builds. Frankly, Crowd Pleaser + Shield seems to prevent more damage than all the defensive-orientated War skills combined.

The heavy armour on the other hand greatly encumbers the wearer and if you don't get both Armour Movement and Light as a Feather (and max them), you might as well forget to act before round 3-4 at the earliest.

Anyway, the question is - do the Wars, particularly the defensive types, need their protection boosted - either the armour or the skills - so they can at least stand a chance vs. bleeders? Or you think that a rock-scissor-paper approach is fine?

[Stormcloak]

I find my wars have difficulty against the bleeders as well, but my glads aren't high enough level for me to comment fairly on how balanced it is. I guess the way to check would be to look at a few typical length matches, add up all of the cumulative bleed damage and divide by the number of hits that cause it to figure out how much bleed damage is being caused. Then compare it to how much damage/benefit another skill adds?

For example in round 1 bleed for 50 points, then in round 2 bleed for 50 more points, or 100 total, the average would be 75 damage per round.
FWIW, if every round a bleeder causes 10 points of bleeding per round consistently, that would be an average of 55 points of damage per round over 10 rounds!

It does seem silly though that a knuckle scrape can cause more bleeding than hacking off a glad's arm. Maybe if bleeding was left the way it is, but gratuitous violence was changed to 'poison weapon' or something I could rationalise that a bit better in my own little world. Any idea how much GV improves bleeding?

I don't have armoured fortress yet. Are you suggesting something like, for every level of armoured fortress that bleeding is reduced by 5% or something similar?

[Alba Kebab]

Here's a novel idea, how about swinging at your opponent instead of turtling?

[Kreegan]

Very innovative but it doesn't work (tried it in many forms). Defensive Wars have pathetic offence and Theatrics have two very good defensive skills which help them block (more than) enough attack to prolong the battle and make the opponent bleed out. Try it yourself and tell me how it works.

[crow]

I have seen this myself with my wars when I run them defensively. The old adage of rock,paper,scissors does not apply as much anymore. Nate designed this engine with builds more in mind. Against a tank, a non bleed theatric has an extremely tough time getting through the armor, whereas a bleeder will get through enough to drain them. There are triggers for this, so when to know to go offensive and fight back before your war is bled dry.

[Kreegan]

Question is how to fight back. A War who has gone all the way down to Armoured Fortress has very poor offense and his attacks can easily be parried (at the moment most bleeders have both Crowd Pleaser and Strength of the Crowd which are more than sufficient even without shield). At the same time the bleeder needs to pierce through the heavy armour just a few times - and the direct damage isn't even all that important - to score 100+ bleeding and win the battle after several rounds. I've tried various triggers but all of them encounter the same problem - can't deal enough damage before the bleeding brings my gladiator down.

[Prinny]

Give them a bigger weapon and Death From Above and they can do more than enough damage~

[Kreegan]

Problem is not with the amount of the damage but with its frequency. If your attacks get constantly parried, it doesn't really matter how hard they could have been.

[Dainoji]

A War who has gone all the way down to Armoured Fortress has very poor offense

If you've placed 100 skill points in the war tree and grabbed AF then your build is most likely a defensive one and you shouldn't be expecting to shower the crowd in an explosion of bone and blood. If you want an offensive war glad put points in Devastating Power, Brute Force and possibly Blood Drunk in the Rage tree and for sure grab DFA. You can't expect to have a maxed out war tree focused on defense and also have a great offense, just as a maxed out rage glad won't be exhausting anyone anytime soon.

[Dainoji]

It does seem silly though that a knuckle scrape can cause more bleeding than hacking off a glad's arm.

Of all the silly things in this game you pick that one? Have you seen the graphic images of rib cages exploding and giant holes through vital organs? Any one of these hits would end any "real" gladiator's life in an instant! This is a fantasy game with Elves and Faeries (ok maybe no faeries and Elves are called Elaar...) running around a fictitious land with Dunders and Urks and Trugs OH MY and fun and balance trump reality thankfully.