Anti-Last-Stand Strategy?

[Dainoji]

Ah right, the "opponent is trying to give up" trigger, forgot about that since I never use it. Well, if that is triggering at the same time as Last Stand then it looks like it's already in there. The problem you are seeing is likely due to the fact that the conditions for "very injured" and "opponent is trying to give up" are close to each other. If it is something like "very injured" is only 25% health left and "opponent is trying to give up" is around 10% left it is possible to score a hit that takes a glad from more than 25% to less than 10% and thus skip the very injured trigger.

Try setting up your #4 strat row to "opponent is trying to give up", and then have your #3 strat row be something like "I have less health than opponent" or some other health condition. This way if you are winning the fight your #4 trigger will fire allowing you to tank and get some protection from Last Stand and then if you start to lose before the match ends you'll switch to your #3 trigger and can start attacking again. I'm sure you get the idea, not sure if "I have less health than opponent" is the trigger to use or not, but you could even try the odd/even round triggers for row #3. Sometimes you'll get caught in the wrong round and your Last Stand trigger won't fire, but about 50% of the time you'll tank for their last stand and then go offensive the next round and then back to tanking and then back to attacking and so on. Those triggers were introduced when Nate wanted War glads to be more Tank n' Spank glads instead of the Total Parry fortresses they were.

[Kreegan]

but you could even try the odd/even round triggers for row #3. Sometimes you'll get caught in the wrong round and your Last Stand trigger won't fire, but about 50% of the time you'll tank for their last stand and then go offensive the next round and then back to tanking and then back to attacking and so on.

That won't work because Last Stand triggers in the same round, meaning that your gladiator is attacking to get the Last-Stand-gladiator to low health, i.e. your gladiator is not tanking. If your gladiator is on his/her feet when the next round begins, then maybe - but the problem is that in 95% of the cases he/she is down by then. But even in this case it's a gamble.
By the way I have a War who's switching between tank and attack constantly exactly as you say (even/odd rounds) for more than 250 fights now but that doesn't help one bit when Last Stand kicks in.

Try setting up your #4 strat row to "opponent is trying to give up", and then have your #3 strat row be something like "I have less health than opponent" or some other health condition.

I could try it but it's again very hard to predict what will happen. Your gladiator will have to allow to be beaten to less health than the Last-Stand-gladiator which is very low health no matter what and even if the strategy kicks in properly, your guy may decide to give up instead of keep fighting. I supposed Grim Determination can help here... will check it out.

[Apoca1ypse]

Chuck Norris's fights last 4-8 rounds consistently and Pharaoh's average is 8-10 and I just had a 75 round fight. Both are in Primus, so as I said, it is more a trend of current glads. Sitting out is your prerogative of course, but why not instead explore ways to lengthen your fights if that is what you want.

kinda hard with an all rage stable. either win fast, or more frequently, lose fast.

[Dainoji]

kinda hard with an all rage stable.

Heh, yeah I thought about that after writing my post. Perhaps it's time to recruit some non-ragers into Team Win *gasp*

[Apoca1ypse]

blasphemy!

I should probably use my theatrics or war stable, but i'm a 1 stable kinda guy...

[oedi]

My biggest pet peve about the set up right now is how in god's green earth can a dual wielding axe fighter hit as hard consistantly as a 2hand war. And a dual rage will easily hit harder. Even when a 2hand war is sporting 170+ strength. And this is just not my 2hander but all of them.

the reason why its like this i believe lies in the fact that to successfully use Axe/mace for offensive(damage) purposes you only need strength and int. Very simplified id say damage is something like this: damagebonus(str)+ average of weapon stats. That gives you a very good return on the invested strenght for all axe/mace wielders. This also explains why, in my opinion, its so hard to get consistantly high damage out of polearms. Its the only weapon that need 4 stats: str, int, agi, stam. I include strength here for all weapons because i belive that the damage bonus you get from strength are essential for most builds.
axe/mace 2 stats (str / int)
blades, exotic 3 stats (str / int / agi)
2h, shield 3 stats (str / int / stam)
polearms 4 stats (str / int / agi / stam)

[Cynaidh]

Ah right, the "opponent is trying to give up" trigger, forgot about that since I never use it. Well, if that is triggering at the same time as Last Stand then it looks like it's already in there.

It doesn't trigger at the same time, here is the answer to the private message i sent Nate asking about it a few months ago:

Everything is working correctly, the discrepancy you are seeing is because the criteria for Last Stand to go off is met before the criteria of "Opponent is trying to Give Up". I'll make a note of this and look and see if this should be changed in the future.

Good luck in the Pit!

Last Stand triggers some time after "my opponent is very injured" but before "opponent is trying to give up", its really annoying that there is no trigger to try and combat it, probably why it so damn popular on glads.

I include strength here for all weapons because i belive that the damage bonus you get from strength are essential for most builds

Totally agree with you Oedi, i wish it wasn't that way, that weapons like the rapier and some of the exotic weapons where pure agility based.


There is only two ways that i know of to "beat" last stand.

1. If you can hit them hard enough to "jump" over it, last stand will only heal for a set amount, if you can do more damage then that in 1 hit you can put them down without it going off.

2. If you can stun them right before it supposed to go off it won't fire, you can see that in Lahral vs Zmash in the bloodgames last night.

[Prinny]

There is only two ways that i know of to "beat" last stand.

1. If you can hit them hard enough to "jump" over it, last stand will only heal for a set amount, if you can do more damage then that in 1 hit you can put them down without it going off.

2. If you can stun them right before it supposed to go off it won't fire, you can see that in Lahral vs Zmash in the bloodgames last night.

I know your angry that Laharl beat him but that's no reason to spell his name wrong

Also Last Stand doesn't trigger when you jump over the HP before it can be triggered.

Lets say Laharl triggers it at 500 Hp and fights Belgarad

Laharl has 541 Health left and Belgarad hits with a 561 Hit he jumps over the Last Stand trigger and beats him, Last Stand won't trigger if you jump over it so he doesn't heal another lets say 400 aditional Health and gain a couple of attacks.

Something else that nullifies Last Stand is if it goes off due to bleed at the start of a round.
If it does due to bleed at the start of the round the gladiator will get the health but wont get the extra attacks.

[Cynaidh]

Sorry I spell it wrong every time i think :P

That was a good fight, i am sure they will go at it again soon

i didnt know about bleed damage causing it to not fire off, the jump over it think was what i was trying to say in my number 1 for it, so we got 3 ways to make it not fire.

1. jumping over it in damage
2. stun's stop it
3. bleed damage going over it at beginning of round

[Kreegan]

It doesn't trigger at the same time, here is the answer to the private message i sent Nate asking about it a few months ago:

Everything is working correctly, the discrepancy you are seeing is because the criteria for Last Stand to go off is met before the criteria of "Opponent is trying to Give Up". I'll make a note of this and look and see if this should be changed in the future.

Good luck in the Pit!

I can confirm that, neither "Opponent is very injured", nor "Opponent is trying to give up" make the respective strategy trigger at the same time when Last Stand triggers - tried them both. It's just not counterable no matter what you try.

Something else that nullifies Last Stand is if it goes off due to bleed at the start of a round.

It goes off immediately after the gladiator with Last Stand gets enough damage though, i.e. in the same round. I'm not sure for Last Stand Wars but the Rages always attack at least twice in the same round when they get hit hard enough to activate the ability, probably because they have a Berserk strategy that goes with it. Either way, it's an instant loss except if your gladiator is almost on full health.

the reason why its like this i believe lies in the fact that to successfully use Axe/mace for offensive(damage) purposes you only need strength and int. Very simplified id say damage is something like this: damagebonus(str)+ average of weapon stats. That gives you a very good return on the invested strenght for all axe/mace wielders. This also explains why, in my opinion, its so hard to get consistantly high damage out of polearms. Its the only weapon that need 4 stats: str, int, agi, stam. I include strength here for all weapons because i belive that the damage bonus you get from strength are essential for most builds.

I think it's a matter of armour penetration power. Axes and maces deal almost the same damage against lightly and heavily armoured opponents, effectively ignoring the bonuses that heavy armour provides while the polearms are much less affective vs. good armour. Axes & Maces gladiators normally beat 2H/Polearms gladiators without breaking a sweat.