Anti-Last-Stand Strategy?

[Kreegan]

All of my non-Theatrics gladiators have identical problems vs. opponents (Rages in the vast number of the cases, naturally) with well-developed Last Stand. The fight goes smoothly until the point when the skill triggers and then my gladiator suddenly finds himself on the ground, tears in his/her eyes, etc. It's getting rather irritating, especially against 2H Rages who are winning in exactly the same manner against me for quite some time now - i.e. get beaten to very low health while scoring about 1-2 big hits in the meantime (still my own gladiator is well on his/her feet and can take some more), then their Last Stand strategy kicks in, they immediately score no less than 2 consecutive very heavy hits (less than 400 damage per hit and I feel lucky) and bring my fighter down. The only ways to avoid this scenario is either to respective Rage to miss one of his attacks; or to get kicked back if Create Distance triggers; or to be stunned before Last Stand triggers. Apparently all these are based on "luck" and I need something controlled.
So, in Rage vs. Rage there doesn't seem to be much room for experiments, it seems like whoever's Last Stand kicks in first (and provided that the opponents has suffered some damage prior to that) wins the battle - of course I'm open to suggestions how to turn this in my favour where possible. Theatrics and perfectly capable of countering most of Rage's strategies, including this one, so I'm skipping it. The only thing which comes to mind about War vs. Rage is to make a trigger for "Opponent is very injured" like 8-10 - Tank - 1-2 and hope that the Last Stand hits will get absorbed, then set a strategy for some counter-attack but I can't really figure out which trigger to use and where to place it so both can kick in when necessary (i.e. first defense to reduce the damage, then offense to bring down the opponent). Also, it looks counter-productive vs. other Wars and Theatrics and generally in close battles. Suggestions?

[crow]

There is not much you can do about this right now. I admit it is very frustrating to see your fighter giving his opponent a good whooping, then last stand triggering turning his/her opponent into a completely different fighter. Add into that the additional health gained and for all practical purposes your guy is fighting 2 separate fights. This was a VERY heated discussion over a year ago, with several folks feeling that 1 skill should not be so powerful. Then most of us managers started including last stands on most of our builds to try and take advantage of this.

My biggest pet peve about the set up right now is how in god's green earth can a dual wielding axe fighter hit as hard consistantly as a 2hand war. And a dual rage will easily hit harder. Even when a 2hand war is sporting 170+ strength. And this is just not my 2hander but all of them.

[Prinny]

Counter strategy is simple: Learn your glad Last Stand it's how my war's are able to win from rage's :P

[Cynaidh]

Counter strategy is simple: Learn your glad Last Stand

Unfortunately that is very true, i know at one point the entire top 10 of primus had last stand, I think spots 8 and higher have it now. I just changed one of my glads who had Battle Hardened to 10 to having last stand, he jumped from being in the 30's-50's to being top 5 after the change.

I too tried to work on making a counter for last stand with Tank but its not possible right now due to when last stand triggers after "Opponent is very injured" but before "Opponent is trying to Give Up", Nate confirmed that for me a few months ago, he said he might look into it and see if it should change some time in the future. So right now there is no trigger that will activate at the same time as last stand that you can use.

[Dainoji]

My biggest pet peve about the set up right now is how in god's green earth can a dual wielding axe fighter hit as hard consistantly as a 2hand war.

Berserk offers a damage buff over the war fighting styles and add into the mix other damage buffs and you've got your answer.

[crow]

Berserk offers a damage buff over the war fighting styles and add into the mix other damage buffs and you've got your answer.

I can see that in a rage fighter, but I am talking about wars and theatrics too. I have just noticed even with my own guys that use dual weapons that they hit as hard as 2hand wars.

Personally I would like to see the damage dialed back for all the glads. There is just too many 1-2 round fights. Ask any manager how they run there Rage fighter and most only use 1 strategy..berserk 10/?. Because the damage is so high now..using strategies for endurance factors and other triggers are not necessary. Almost seems like the game has gotten simpler because of this. If you get more fights were these guys are wearing out because they can not win in a round or 2. Then more complex strategies will have to used..hence more thinking required.

The only type of glad that I think is set just right are the 2hand rages. These poor fellows have been the whipping boys of the arena for so long.

[Dainoji]

Chuck Norris and Pharaoh make rage glads pass out ALL the time, they make War and Theatrics glads pass out as well. The second I see Trug in the race column I'm 80% sure I'm going to win. And if I see Rage of any race I'm 60% sure I'll win. They also make their fair share of War ard Theatrics glads pass out as well. The reason you aren't seeing long fights is nobody is spec'd to make that happen save my two glads and a few others. If more people would do it you'd see a shift on the sands. The problem with those two glads is the second I see a 2H weapon in the other guys hand I know with 95% certainty I will lose, and there are just enough 2H glads to keep my boys out of the top spots but they often hover in the 20s and 30s at times.

I'm not saying your observations aren't correct, but I am suggestion they are consequences of players actions and not necessarily the game mechanics themselves. If tomorrow 80% of Primus decided to become Snivlers there would be a race to figure out how to get more initiative or get the first hit, if a majority switched to Dunder people would untrain barreling attack and glads with signature move sweep would cry about how useless it is. There has always been a meta game to this game as we chase the trends and try and stay on the crest of each wave. Right now it would seem Cynaidh has this wave licked!

I propose we start a thread in the Suggestion forum and offer solutions to perceived issues but take care to stay away from things like "this is useless" or "this is stupid", or "2H rage sucks" types of comments. For starters it looks like people might like a trigger that happens at the same time as Last Stand or shortly before or after. Suggestions like this would offer more strategic options and enhance the game. Comments like "reduce damage" aren't helpful because we don't really know what it going on and reducing damage doesn't really offer a specific strategic option. If your concern is too much damage/fast fights perhaps you would suggest a trigger to fire if you are fighting a Dunder, or a 2H glad to counter what you perceive as dealing a lot of damage. Offering up ideas that give the players more strategic variety and options are what I'm talking about. I think suggestions like that from the collective wisdom of the player base with thousands of hours of playtime under their belts would be useful feedback to the devs.

[Apoca1ypse]

last stand triggers when you are very injured, so having a strategy for "my opponent is very injured" gives you your strategy change for when last stand would trigger.

Sure, you'll have that strategy trigger even if your opponent does not have last stand, but that wouldnt be the end of the world.



I also agree with crow that top end fights are silly and too fast. I've stopped running my primus glads and enjoyed going back to running a new gladiator where fights last 3-4 rounds and damage + swing rates are sensible.

[Dainoji]

I also agree with crow that top end fights are silly and too fast. I've stopped running my primus glads and enjoyed going back to running a new gladiator where fights last 3-4 rounds and damage + swing rates are sensible.

Chuck Norris's fights last 4-8 rounds consistently and Pharaoh's average is 8-10 and I just had a 75 round fight. Both are in Primus, so as I said, it is more a trend of current glads. Sitting out is your prerogative of course, but why not instead explore ways to lengthen your fights if that is what you want.

[Kreegan]

last stand triggers when you are very injured, so having a strategy for "my opponent is very injured" gives you your strategy change for when last stand would trigger.

The fine-tuning seems to be pretty problematic though. I tried 10-Tank-1 for Opponent is very injured on position 4 and 8-Bash-10 for Opponent is trying to give up on position 3 and the latter triggered when Last Stand triggered for the opposing Rage (needless to say, my War lost). I hoped that a gladiator with Last Stand will get "very injured" before he tries to give up and thus my guy's strategies will trigger in the right order but it's not working. I'll try with 10-Tank-1 for Opponent is trying to give up and see how it goes (although I don't know how to make my gladiator attack after that... a dead end). The other problem is that the 2H Rages sometimes score big criticals even against tanking Wars (just recently one such guy with an unimpressive blue Battle Flail hit my tanking War for some 400 damage)...

Sure, you'll have that strategy trigger even if your opponent does not have last stand, but that wouldnt be the end of the world.

If you start tanking at the end of the fight which you are otherwise winning, any Theatrics with good level of Gratuitous Violence (which is basically any Theatrics in the higher brackets) will bring you down with bleeding (and get a better chance to knock you out) and most Wars will receive an advantage as well. It's not really wise to set your entire strategy to counter one class and lose more often against the other two because of it.