Chain armor vs Plate armor

[Cynaidh]

This kinda started in Crow's post for AlphaIi and I'd rather not highjack his post.

From Kreegan

While you're at it, can someone explain why Theatrics in Medium armour seems to get considerably less damage than a non-tanking War with same level armour but Heavy (no shields)? Heavy Scarring, some defence bonus from Counterstrike? It seem pretty weird that the Rages cut through War's armour like it's made of butter while Theatrics are sometimes barely injured even by a high level Rampage strike.

From Dainoji

Gladiator strength scores are climbing higher then ever before, that could be a reason you are seeing less deflections. I noticed as Thunder Lips strength got much higher she got through armor more often. Weapon also matters. Axes and maces get through better than blades.

From Dainoji

Rampage takes a percent of the opponent's health based on the skill level of the rage gladiator.

In my opinion i agree with Kreegan chain is the better armor right now or theatrics are super more defensive then warriors (i am using the word super since they use a lesser type of armor but yet take less damage).

Now since we are talking about STR being the key factor i used Smak for a small run of challenges to see what it looked like today, he has 190 str, 10 skill in Two handed weapon, Brute Force, Rampage, Shock and Awe, Overwhelming Presence and Total Carnage.... in theory he should hit like a truck.

Luckily all the fights i got where against warriors and theatrics without shields (offense glads) so we can factor out shields totally.

VS theatrics and warriors i had him set to run 10 berserk 10 for these fights.

I think the data shows, that yes Rampage is totally based off hit points (which i am sure we all agree on), and that the CHAIN wearing theatrics take much less damage per hit then the PLATE wearing warriors. This is something i have noticed for awhile now even when compared to AlphaIi and Blacktalon who are warriors with 10 Battle Hardened, theatrics are taking much less damage per hit.

One of the attacks that really stands out to me is:

SMAK attacks wildly with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
RAVNOAL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable RAVNOAL bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+278 Damage)

Ravnoal has 9 in heavy scarring which we are assuming helps your armor, so a rank 10 Shock & Awe with rank 10 brute force, with 190 strength (which i have seen hit leather armor for over 1600) does less then 300 damage here.... really? That hit just blew me away.

Well lets have some data, all hits where red color crits

THEATRICS

VS RAVNOAL (1906)
SMAK attacks wildly with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
RAVNOAL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable RAVNOAL bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+278 Damage)

SMAK readies a strike from the ground.
SMAK storms RAVNOAL and seeks to smash him.
Massive shot to RAVNOAL's forearm...The grounds keepers are going to have to work hard to clean up this mess! (+245 Damage)

vs Narvalo (1614)
SMAK attacks viciously with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
Awesome shot to the upper arm squashes nerves and veins on bone shards! (+792 Damage)

SMAK whirls around as if on fire.
SMAK uses his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER to brutally crush NARVALO.
NARVALO backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
SMAK smiles after the beastly hit to NARVALO's forearm! (+365 Damage)

SMAK flashes like wild fire around NARVALO.
SMAK tries to strike his opponent.
Blast to the hand sends fingers flying in several different directions! (+322 Damage)

SMAK attempts to strike from the ground.
SMAK advances on NARVALO and tries to maim him.
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER tastes victory and inflicts massive wounds on NARVALO's sternum! (+490 Damage)


Vs Azmael (1694)
SMAK uses his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER to carve a path of destruction.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
SMAK connects with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER creating monstrous injuries! (+788 Damage)

SMAK charges frantically back and forth.
SMAK attacks wildly with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
AZMAEL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER tastes victory and inflicts gigantic injuries on AZMAEL's outer thigh! (+320 Damage)

SMAK ducks down and unleashes a deadly uppercut with his FIST.
SMAK looks to seriously damage AZMAEL's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
Massive shot to AZMAEL's shoulder blade...The grounds keepers are going to have to work hard to clean up this mess! (+236 Damage)

WARRIORS

VS Foxtrot (2197 hit points)
SMAK uses his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER to carve a path of destruction.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable FOXTROT bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+1025 Damage)

SMAK brutally slams his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER into FOXTROT.
FOXTROT backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Incredible smash to what used to be FOXTROT's stomach brings the crowd to their feet! (+470 Damage)

SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER carves a path of pain through the air.
SMAK looks to seriously damage FOXTROT's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
Monsterous shot creates an explosion of blood, bone, and loud screams! (+900 Damage)


VS ZEROTWENTYONE (1887 hit points)
SMAK whips his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER overhead viciously bringing death nearer.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
Awesome shot to the upper arm squashes nerves and veins on bone shards! (+1013 Damage)

SMAK bounces and leaps around ZEROTWENTYONE.
SMAK leaps forward, hammering his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER downward with great force.
ZEROTWENTYONE backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable ZEROTWENTYONE bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+473 Damage)

SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER crashes down with tremendous power.
SMAK's attack lands on ZEROTWENTYONE's upper arm creating titanic injuries! (+844 Damage)


VS ZEROELEVEN (1900)
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER accelerates toward its target with deadly purpose.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as she attacks! (-Rampage-)
SMAK lands a strike on ZEROELEVEN's forearm inflicting cyclopean wounds! (+959 Damage)

SMAK moves with uncontrolled energy around the arena.
SMAK leaps into the air and executes a cruel strike with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
Massive shot to ZEROELEVEN's groin...The grounds keepers are going to have to work hard to clean up this mess! (+1002 Damage)

[Dainoji]

Theatrics glads tend to have a LOT more agility than War glads and the tooltip says agility helps defense, so that could be part of the reason you are seeing what you are. Theatrics also has the skill Heavy Scarring which I presume adds armor based on the description and my experiments. Fighting style also matters, when I run Parry-X on my theatrics glads they take less damage than when they are running an offensive style. Throw into the mix achievements and you never know how much defense the other guy has which from what I've seen takes away from attack power which takes away from damage. Not to mention you'd need to run your tests 100 or 1000 more times to get a truly useful data set.

[Prinny]

If agility is the key factor to this try Smak vs Laharl,he's got 143 agility and walks around in the highest armor rating possible exept for his arms, thsoe are lvl 49~

[Cynaidh]

Yup I agree with your points but their agility scores aren't really what you might expect though (Ravnoal has 112, Foxtrot has 127, yet Ravnoal takes less damage) but I know what you mean. My main point is I am in agreement with Crow that something happened to plate armor in one of the past few patches, i need to buy the scribe on Smak's account to pull up the fights but before the last couple of patches when Smak or Belgarad would fight Eruption or AlphaIi they would both have like half of their attacks be deflections off the plate armor (at the same time i never really saw deflections off chain that much) now I rarely see deflections at all when i fight Eruption and AlphaIi even though Smak and Belgarad's stats/skills haven't changed that much.

[Cynaidh]

If i am in range tonight smak will challenge lahral, that's a crap ton of agil.

I really need to buy the scribe, i know smak and lahral have fought in the past week a few times i think.

[Dainoji]

If agility is the key factor to this try Smak vs Laharl,he's got 143 agility and walks around in the highest armor rating possible exept for his arms, thsoe are lvl 49~

Prinny, Laharl isn't wearing the best armor. He is wearing mostly plate armor, there is another level above that called full plate armor. Better go visit the blacksmith!

[Prinny]

Prinny, Laharl isn't wearing the best armor. He is wearing mostly plate armor, there is another level above that called full plate armor. Better go visit the blacksmith!

Not rly Dain, thsoe 2 have the same armour ratings so i went with the lower weight ones to have as low encumbrance as possible, but with the patch laharl is still on 27& lol

[crow]

I will comment here based upon what I have seen in the last few months with my guys Eruption and Alpha, who both have level 10 in battle hardened.

When running parry-slash in these 2 instances they do tend to block a few shots and deflect a few more than normal, but when they do get hit, they get lit up like a christmas tree. Also with running the Parry style..Dain is correct in the fact that there damage output is much less than in the normal slash attack, which is understandable.

I am sure that the uptick in damage is a result in strength. The Rampage attack from what I have noticed does not seem to take in account armor protection, but more simply the amount of starting HP. And a level 10 rampage attack will get close to 50% HP damage. One of the big issues I have been seeing, is 400-600 HP shots that were once reserved only for the 2handers is now almost commonplace from dual weapon rages. I wonder when designing did this Nate ever envision some of the glads getting close to 200 strength. I personally am just rolling with this right now. I figure when Nate completes some of the projects he is working on, he will take a good look at the overall state of the game and make some skill balancing passes and try to even things up a bit.

[Kreegan]

I don't think that the Agility value has something to do with this (not directly at least). I have a lvl 19 War with 82 basic Agility, 94 with the gear, 50% of the armour pieces are Heavy Armour and I've seen enemy Rages hit exactly these spots with 2H weapons and deal brutal damage (for example - a simple green Flamberge with something like 60-100 damage in the hands of a pretty mediocre lvl 18 Rage managed to deal two very heavy hits against areas with Heavy Armour, one of them scoring more than 400 damage!). I also have an offensive Theatrics (no shields) with 92 Agility at level 26, clad in Light and Medium armour and a strategy to Counterstrike against Rages and he takes much less damage from their attacks compared to my Wars. In both cases the armour is somewhat up to date with the levels of the respective gladiators.
I've noticed the same behaviour in the tavern missions - my level 35 2H Rage is fighting against some lower level Theatrics creep with universally inferior stats and is struggling to deal some serious damage (rarely more than 300 no matter the attack type). At the same time, War creeps in full Heavy Armour are brought down in 2 strikes x 400-500 damage, sometimes even just one. And of course the fights of the same Rage in the Arena - Theatrics +/- 3-4 levels compared to her rarely take hits dealing more than 200-300 damage while Wars of similar level usually receive some 400-500 damage per hit in well-armoured areas. This has happened to me way too many times to think that it's a coincidence.

[Cynaidh]

VS Lahral with his 143 agility

SMAK unleashes a vicious crushing attack with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER tastes victory and inflicts magnificent damage on LAHARL's shin! (+864 Damage)

SMAK moves around on the ground looking for an opening to strike.
SMAK whips around, swinging his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER with unbelievable speed.
LAHARL's shoulder is smashed into a thousand pieces! (+413 Damage)

SMAK drives towards LAHARL and attempts to wound his opponent.
LAHARL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Great blast to LAHARL's upper arm shatters all in its path! (+451 Damage)

SMAK moves around on the ground looking for an opening to strike.
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER hurtles through the air with deadly intent.
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER connects with LAHARL's thigh inflicting gigantic wounds! (+464 Damage)

SMAK tries to attack from the ground.
SMAK overruns LAHARL and tries to hurt his adversary.
Heavy shot crushes LAHARL's shin sending bone fragments to adjacent areas...LAHARL looks to the Enforcer with puppy dog eyes! (+675 Damage)
LAHARL is bleeding very badly from several wounds!!!

I think its fairly easy to see that agility isn't what is making the theatrics so much more defensive, Ravnoal has 30 less points of agility then Laharl yet he takes less damage per hit then Laharl.