War Class Discussion

I’d like to open up a discussion on the war class as a whole. The war class seems to be the one that comes up most often with suggestions for improvement, and instead of making suggestions for one particular skill at a time, I'd rather explore the whole skill tree. While I don’t think that it’s necessarily broken, I do think there may be opportunity to fine tune the skill tree somewhat and maybe we can hash out a feasible proposal here.

Personally, the war class is my favourite – it has a lot of depth of complexity and for the most part is well balanced. I feel that its greatest feature, the ability to dip into the other trees with skills that fit, is also its biggest drawback in that to get those options, you lose out on the tier 5 skills (considering weapon skills as Tier 0 for nomeclature purposes). I think that a few modifications could be made to make the war class a bit more dynamic – granted this is coming from my own casual observation and personal bias, while I’m hoping to look at this from a larger perspective.

Each class has a concept and for the most part the skills fit in with it. Rages focus on offense and aggression with a fierce flurry of attacks and damage, or the guerilla style hit hard and run. Theatrics are tricky, adaptive, and create tactical situations that they are able to take advantage of. When I think of War, defense and toughness come to mind (which the War certainly fits with), but so does discipline and decisiveness with practical and economical strikes.

For the most part, I quite like the war skill tree, but there’s a couple that just don’t quite fit right in my opinion:

Master of Arms: I think this is a decent skill, and a good way to train shields while getting a bit of extra utility (in case of picking up a new weapon when disarmed). I don’t know if I would put this as a Tier 2 skill though – it seems more on the level of a Tier 1 skill. Yes, you also have the ability the retool your glad’s weapons which offers a lot of utility, but at the same time that aspect is fairly cost prohibitive to take advantage of (buying weapons and vault space). I think this would be a good tier 1 skill.

Iron Jaw: Admittedly I’ve never used this much – I see this as being highly situational and the perception by some in the forum is that it offers very little utility. At the same time though, I can see it being useful for the war trug tanks (and there seems to be a lot of them moving up) – sit them down in the middle of the arena with their lunch pail while they exhaust their opponents with high health, bleed resistance, and now knockout resistance. I saw some suggestion about modifying Iron Jaw to include knockdown resistance, but that may be a bit OP on those tank builds. I see two potential options for this skill:
1) Swap Iron Jaw into the Rage tree and put Barreling Attack into the War Tree (as a Tier 2 skill since MOA would be Tier 1). Rages have plenty of offensive options, and BA is generally not held in very high regard for them. Give the rages Iron Jaw to give them a bit of beefiness (anyone ever try to head-butt Conan?) and resistance to allow them to push through stuns and give Barreling Attack to the War Tree to give the War’s a bit more offense/tactics. This could tie in half decently with War-Cry in builds, which is another skill held in low regard in some cases. This way Iron Jaw is kept for those that really want it, plus it gives an option to take out the war-trugs a little easier.
2) Another option is to eliminate the skill (With MOA taking its place in Tier 1), and opening up a Tier 2 skill slot which could give a bit more balance. My suggestion would be a passive skill something like “Live by the sword” or “Equipment Master”: War’s define themselves through their equipment, so it makes sense to have a skill focussing on this. When I picture a war in my head, I see a tough, grizzled veteran who’s learned how to survive out on the battlefield. This is a guy/girl who’s learned where armour weaknesses are and where to strike on his opponent (mild armour penetration) and who isn’t going to ever let go of his weapon/shield as it means his life (resistance to disarm and critical fumbles). This provides a bit of offense for the war class, and a bit of protection from disarms (particularly for twohanders).

War Cry: A lot of people have suggested the limited use of this skill, but I’m on the fence about it. I’ve used it on a dual sword glad and it worked well enough, and I also tried it on a pole-arm dunder which was terrible and I had to retrain (lost attack – not so good when have low initiative and don’t make many attacks). I think the skill as it is, is okay but nothing fantastic. Looking at it on its own, I don’t see it competing with Adrenaline Rush or Hamstring, the other open skills at the same level, but you have to consider it within the whole skill tree. I know it used to give an initiative bonus/penalty (before my time) which sounds interesting and fits in with the war concept (take a hit and then burst back on attack), but I’m not sure if that would be overpowered (a 2 round initiative penalty to your opponent sounds like it could be good). I’ve seen it suggested that it should be an attack that includes damage, but damage and a successful stun at the same time might be a bit too much (edit: correction as pointed out by Adoede, it will sometimes do damage). If Barreling Attack was in the War Tree, these two skills together might give a bit more utility for certain builds. Again, I’m on the fence with this one and would be curious what others suggest.

Down and Dangerous: I just can’t get excited by the skill description here. I agree with some of the concerns that it sounds like a way to get around the War’s situational weakness when sent to the ground (where Light as a Feather should be helping them get back to their feet) and that compared to other Tier 5 skills it just doesn’t hold up. There were a number of suggestions made on the new skill, and I personally would be interested in some of those. Compiled suggestions (and a few more) from previous threads include:
- Passive bonus to attack power and initiative
- Offensive version of Never Say Die (the closer your war gets to losing whether by hp or endurance, he gets a bonus to damage)
- Offensive use of shields to distinguish the war class. Decreases your opponents initiative and each shield type provides a different activated benefit (perhaps bucklers do a shield stun, tower shields can pin opponents to increase critical chances and the level of a crit, medium shield can let you get in close and decrease your opponent’s defense with an activated attack similar to feint) to give both some offense and tactical flavour
- Damage deflection with returned bleeding (spiked armour) – an interesting idea, but in my opinion would have to be less effective the more defensive you were running your strategy (would otherwise potentially reinforce tanking and not doing anything)
- Increased critical protection with a reasonably low chance to halve attack damage – another good idea but I wouldn’t make it against all crits, maybe just knockdowns, stuns, and disarms as a way to allow your war to continue to make attacks (and against whatever it is that happens when you simply aren’t attacking or returning fire – give a minimum of at least one attack per round, considering activity, weapons speed, etc)
- Ambidexterity which reduces the off-hand weapon damage penalty and increasing attack power – I see this as more of a theatrics type skill in concept, but again it is a good viable option. Perhaps if it had an offensive benefit as mentioned when attacking, but also a defensive benefit when parrying.
- Perhaps an activated offensive skill where you immediately hit back when you get attacked (like a counterpart to the defensive Create Distance)

The final skill tree could look something like:
Tier 0: Weapon Skills
Tier 1: Grim Determination, Master of Arms
Tier 2: Battle Hardened, Death from Above, (NEW SKILL or Barreling Attack)
Tier 3: Armour Movement, Never Say Die, War Cry (possibly adjusted?)
Tier 4: Intercepting Guard, Light as a Feather, Create Distance
Tier 5: Armoured Fortress, NEW SKILL


Anyway, that’s my two cents and I’m interested in what others think – we have a good passionate community here:) Again, I’m not saying the war class is broken or lodging a complaint (I plan to continue using them afterall), I just want to explore some options with constructive feedback for how to make it a bit more dynamic.

Looking forward to your thoughts,

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Originally Posted by Stormcloak

Master of Arms: I think this is a decent skill, and a good way to train shields while getting a bit of extra utility (in case of picking up a new weapon when disarmed). I don’t know if I would put this as a Tier 2 skill though – it seems more on the level of a Tier 1 skill. Yes, you also have the ability the retool your glad’s weapons which offers a lot of utility, but at the same time that aspect is fairly cost prohibitive to take advantage of (buying weapons and vault space). I think this would be a good tier 1 skill.

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IMO a gladiator must have some advantages while fighting against weapon types which he knows well.
For example, a gladiator having the Axes & Maces skill and the Blades skill and wielding a sword must fight well against an opponent that uses a mace and has only the Axes & Maces skill.
Because he "knows" what exactly his opponent doing.

Unfortunately, there is no successful gladiator that uses two weapon skills (except the Shields of course).
So, the mechanics that i described above will not work in a real fight (Or it not works if it's already implemented).
But the Master of Arms skill gives a knowledges about all types of weapons (except theatrics?). So, there may be a benefit to use this skill if the mechanics already exists.
Otherwise, that may be a way to change this skill. In the simplest case, this skill may add some Attack Power and Defense for his owner.

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Originally Posted by Stormcloak

The final skill tree could look something like:
Tier 0: Weapon Skills
Tier 1: Grim Determination, Master of Arms
Tier 2: Battle Hardened, Death from Above, (NEW SKILL or Barreling Attack)
Tier 3: Armour Movement, Never Say Die, War Cry (possibly adjusted?)
Tier 4: Intercepting Guard, Light as a Feather, Create Distance
Tier 5: Armoured Fortress, NEW SKILL

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I'd just like to chip in some tips, I like the idea of taking Barreling Attack out of Rage and giving it to the Wars, I might use it on a War, never on my Rages- there's too many activateds in Rage tree for me to want BA. Albeit I wouldn't think Iron Jaw would be particularly useful for the Rage tree, it'd be a one-sided tradeoff for me, I wouldn't use Barreling Attack on my Ragers, and Iron Jaw would be very situational and I'd likely go for the other passive options.

I would love to see more activated offense skills in the War tier, when I think War I don't just see a heavily armoured tank, I see a master of weaponry, a skilled warrior, surely such a WARrior would have powerful offensive capabilities? (without having to hybrid into Rage and Theatrics to get said offense).

Not bashing War, I've had 4 fairly successful Wars and my next HoL will likely be a War (unless Shadow & Myst comes out soon, in which case I may change my mind) I just want to offer some little suggestions to help balance it out and not be so extremely pure defense (even Rage, which is supposed to be bare-all offense has defensive points in their tree (Ex. "Armour Movement", "Adrenaline Rush", "Heavy Scarring", and "Hard to Hit" whereas Theatrics has defense and offense in balance). War has pitiful offense, the only remotely offensively-driven skill in the whole tree is "Death From Above", I guess I'd just like to see less War-Rage offense hybrids and more Offensive-Wars, without having to rely on other trees to get its offense, it's a WAR-rior.

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Originally Posted by FrosteeFyre

Theatrics has defense and offense in balance

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I think, the Theatrics tree has only one pure offensive skill, but it's very useful for many builds. It's Feint. There are many of defensive skills and some skills for a strategic usage. But the pure offensive skill is only one...
Actually, the Theatrics tree has a very defensive accent, just allowing to do some builds (like speed-theatrics or counterattack-theatrics) which are looks like offensive builds. But it's just some kinds of "active" defenses. While the War tree has an accent on the "passive" (static) defense...

The Rage tree allows to do an interesting builds too (especially after implementing Hard to Hit).

But the War tree don't allows to do an interesting builds. And only experienced players may do something special using strategies (that's not about tanks of course :).

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Originally Posted by weaw

I think, the Theatrics tree has only one pure offensive skill

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To be fair I wasn't talking about pure offense skills, I was talking about offense-oriented parts of the tree, and theatrics has a ton of those (Feint, Signature Move, Gratuitous Violence, Hamstring, KO, and Bloody Spectacle are all offense-oriented passives/activateds in the Theatrics tree) ;)

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Originally Posted by Stormcloak

War Cry: I’ve seen it suggested that it should be an attack that includes damage, but damage and a successful stun at the same time might be a bit too much (perhaps damage if the stun doesn't take?).

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FYI - My Glad with War Cry at lvl 10 almost always does damage when he hits with War Cry. In fact, those hits get a decent bonus to damage compared to regular attacks in addition to the stun and cannot defend effects. I actually quite like the skill.

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Originally Posted by FrosteeFyre

Signature Move, Gratuitous Violence, Hamstring, KO, and Bloody Spectacle are all offense-oriented passives/activateds in the Theatrics tree

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You're wrong. :)

Signature Moves and Hamstring are effect-oriented skills and may be used for both offensive and defensive purposes. The goal is to prevent opponent's actions.
As a rule are used for defense.

Knockout, Gratuitous Violence and Bloody Spectacle are effect-oriented skills too. The goal is to win a fight via specific conditions.
No relation nor to offense, nor to defense.

Weaw - regarding your point on Master of Arms, it does make sense but one could also argue that learning to fight against different styles is a part of weapon training itself. Besides, there's already a skill (Battle Hardened) which does something similar to what you suggest with an attack power and defense bonus. I wouldn't want to overlap too much as I'm looking more to just add a bit of extra dimension to the war. I think the skill is okay as it is if it were a Tier 1.
edit: Actually, one interesting idea would be if you could equip different weapon types, for example a knife and a hammer and you could slash n' bash (I don't reall whether I've tested to see if that works or not).

Frostee and weaw,
Regarding both of you with your discussion on offense/defense, I agree with both in a sense but am trying to look at it as a whole. If either of you play chess, you might be aware that there are different styles of play. Morphy was a straight out attacker (rage), Tal was a tricky player who relied on confusing positions and complication (theatrics), Karpov focussed on solid positional play (war), and some players like Spassky were comfortable with any style. Now, with Karpov in particular, many amateurs will describe his play as defensive (or even dull), not realising it was a different form of aggression (like a python slowly choking you compared to a quick striking cobra). You can't really look at one aspect in a vaccuum as it's on more of a spectrum with how you use the particular skills and build of your glad. Although on paper their offense may look pitiful, I tend to run mine a bit more aggressively. I try to look at it like the strong defense gives you the chance to close in and attack your opponent. (Granted, a war will never outswing or outdamage a rage and it shouldn't). But yes, I would be interested in seeing a bit more within it's own tree that was "offensive" or "tactical" in nature that isn't just trying to duplicate what the hybrid builds can accomplish.

Adoede - I checked back on a few older fights for my first glad (who used it well) and yes, you are correct that War Cry will sometimes do damage. I wasn't seeing it on the last glad I tried it on who wasn't so effective (which was my own mistake). I did like the skill when I used it on my first glad and believe it worked well for him, but I have seen this particular skill come up for discussion before which was why I thought I would bring it up (and am on the fence about it). I'll update my original post to reflect what you mentioned.

Master of Arms is pretty much a second Shield skill for most gladiators, something like an insurance that if you need to swap weapons you won't have to retrain. Theoretically it can be a good skill if you know all of your opponents in advance and fight rarely, something like Blood Games extended to all other modes but otherwise nobody really changes weapons except when something is tested for the sake of the testing. The War class doesn't have attack-neutral styles like Berserk or Counter Attack so you can't equip a sword and a hammer at the same time with good effect. Still, the skill can remain unchanged - it's nothing exceptionally useful but it's not bad either.

Iron Jaw is... don't know what it is. I really hated it a while ago when I had it on a hybrid War who got stunned pretty much as regularly as the other gladiators I had at that time (without that skill of course) and the KO reductions weren't all that noticeable either. Recently I decided to give it a second chance on Toros and, again, I'm not impressed with that skill. Getting stunned three times in one fight isn't really my idea of "protection" so I'll just ignore it on the future builds.

War Cry does damage more consistently than Barreling Attack when used with one-handed weapons and less consistently when used with 2H weapons. The chance to trigger stun is really, I mean REALLY small, something like 1 in each 10 attempts and I haven't noticed any bonus damage compared to a standard attack like Aboede. The problem I have with that skill is the fact that it can single-handedly cause the defeat of your fighter if you are unlucky with the dice rolls. I've had cases where my War wouldn't deal any damage for 3 or 4 War Cry attempts (all or most of them resisted by the opponent) which the opponent liked very much. No other skill in the game can so counter-productive, even Barreling Attack always deals damage at lvl 10 when used with a 2H weapon or always knocks down the opponent when used with an one-handed weapon, you are not gambling with your fighter's efficiency when you pick it.

Down and Dangerous... so far only oedi seems to like it, although his gladiator (1131) doesn't seem to share his opinion. I'd give the skill the benefit of doubt until I see it on a fully equipped gladiator. I'm not planning to use it on any fighter until then, Armoured Fortress is vastly superior to it at this point.

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A footnote - the War class needs the most attention in order to be efficient but it can also really dominate the arena if handled properly. The only "lazy" War build that exists currently is the shield-bearing tank - nothing complex about its strategy or equipment requirements - but all other War builds need you to plan ahead a lot of things and play with the strategy quite a bit until you find the optimal approach. That's what makes the class so interesting though. When you find the right combination of strategy, equipment and skills, it's quite rewarding.

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Originally Posted by Kreegan

the War class needs the most attention in order to be efficient but it can also really dominate the arena if handled properly. The only "lazy" War build that exists currently is the shield-bearing tank - nothing complex about its strategy or equipment requirements ...

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1. I see two sides here.
The first is what the game system "implies".
The second is how players may to use that system.

With all due respect, Kreegan, You're wrote about "second side". Because the "first side" for the War is a damage absorption, wearing heavy armours, "long life" via Create Distance and Never Say Die, etc. As a result, the game system "pushes" a war into "lazy" tank build.
While a Theatric or Rage are able to choose different ways for their builds even without leaving their own skills tree...

This situation is not too bad while the "second side" allows to make some interesting.
But...

2.

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Originally Posted by Nate

Awhile back when new skills were being introduced ...

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We have three "new" skills. How it impacted on the game?

Q: We got something new from Entangle?
A: Definitely yes.

Q: We got something new from Hard to Hit?
A: Most likely yes.

Q: We got something new from Down and Dangerous?
A: Most likely no.

// It's not about "usability" of these skills or something like, just about statistics on the sand.

So, i see some reasons to disscuss the War changes...

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Perhaps, the best way to solve this is a new Fighting Style for War.

I agree with weaw, the "implied" style for a War class is damage absorbing tank, and that's it, there's very little choice, I would love it if there was some offense in the tree, or choice, or options, it's really straightforward "just tank it out" and after making 3 tanks it's gotten a little stale for me. Given that War class is the only one that can use Polearms I would love to see a skill or two in the tree utilizing said polearm usability, or just some offense- maybe even an offensive fighting style for war like weaw suggested.

Kreegan - your footnote sums up what I was trying to say, better than I did. I agree completely with that sentiment.
Do you have any suggestions on the skills discussed that you'd like to see (some of the suggestions were taken from previous threads you posted in), or are you content with just ignoring those skills?

weaw - an intersting idea about a new fighting style (but no idea how easy it is to implement/playtest). Did you have any thoughts in particular?

Frostee (just saw your post) - did you have any idea in particular on a skill you'd like to see (or were there any from the original post that interest you?). Maybe something more weapon-length related (polearm)?

Nate - if you've been reading I'd really like to hear your thoughts on what we've discussed so far. Whether it's "keep talking, the discussion is interesting", or even "don't hold you breath" would be good :)

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Originally Posted by Stormcloak

Frostee (just saw your post) - did you have any idea in particular on a skill you'd like to see (or were there any from the original post that interest you?). Maybe something more weapon-length related (polearm)?

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I'd love to see one or more of these get testing for the war tree (as per your suggestions from a compilation of other posts on this topic) :
"-Perhaps an activated offensive skill where you immediately hit back when you get attacked (like a counterpart to the defensive Create Distance)
-Offensive use of shields to distinguish the war class. Decreases your opponents initiative and each shield type provides a different activated benefit (perhaps bucklers do a shield stun, tower shields can pin opponents to increase critical chances and the level of a crit, medium shield can let you get in close and decrease your opponent’s defense with an activated attack similar to feint) to give both some offense and tactical flavour
-Offensive version of Never Say Die (the closer your war gets to losing whether by hp or endurance, he gets a bonus to damage)"

Whilst I think these options are more of the "tank absorbing damage" route and I'd rather not see more of the same in the tree:
"-Damage deflection with returned bleeding (spiked armour)
-Increased critical protection with a reasonably low chance to halve attack damage – another good idea but I wouldn’t make it against all crits, maybe just knockdowns, stuns, and disarms"

And I don't like the idea of another buffing passive, the War tree has more passives than the other 2 trees as it is already

I agree Ambidexterity sounds cool, but if I were making an offensive war it'd be 2h, and if I was making another tank it'd be shield and mace, so I can't see it benefiting the war tree, maybe theatrics or rage though?

Just my thoughts on the ideas you offered up, I'm very unoriginal/uncreative, so don't expect any flashes of brilliance from me :P XD

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Originally Posted by Stormcloak

an intersting idea about a new fighting style (but no idea how easy it is to implement/playtest). Did you have any thoughts in particular?

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A developer may launch few (or more) thousand of fights using copies of existing gladiators in order to test a new skill. I see no difference here what exactly is an object to test, a skill or a fighting style...

The idea of a new style was born while i was reading Kreegan's post. So, i had no special thoughts at that moment.
But right now i have to say:
The real properties of a pure war right now is armour, absorption (and related strength, endurance). The payment is the statics.
So, it may be a style, which exchanges armour/absorption into number of attacks, initiative and such.

Another funny way is to make a skill (to swap Down and Dangerous, for example) that gives to war access to any fighting style in the game. But this way requires a correction. Because counterattacking using 2H may be not so funny for a war opponent. %)
For example, a war may pay for "non-native" styles by burning tons of endurance and loosing these armour/absorbation/deflection...

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Nate - if you've been reading I'd really like to hear your thoughts on what we've discussed so far. Whether it's "keep talking, the discussion is interesting", or even "don't hold you breath" would be good :)

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Respectful and polite debate is always welcome on these forums. Have fun, brainstorm, and be as creative as you like!

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

Thank you Nate :)

Frostee - If I were to pick a skill, I would probably be leaning towards the same ones you mentioned (or even the one I suggested with armour penetration and critical fumble/disarm resistance). Those would be the ones that could potentially add a bit more dimension and another option to the class while still keeping in theme.

Weaw, for a fighting style maybe if there was something like a grappling technique that tires both glads out to give a direct way to attack endurance? Chance to successfully grapple would have to depend on AL/BL. There would have to be some drawbacks though (maybe damage when the grapple is broken) because I could see that being particularly powerful for the "lazy" tanks.