Balancing Pass

Greetings Pit Masters!

We had a very lively debate on the forums recently and as a result I decided to push up the priority of some balancing issues that have been on the todo list for awhile. Balancing passes are done using data and not casual observations and thus may or may not be focused on areas you believed to be out of balance. With the exception of a few builds most are less than +/- 4% of the average which is a pretty amazing accomplishment from a balancing perspective given the number of builds and plethora of options and combinations within each build. I took a look at the various builds from all brackets that were having a harder time in the arena and came up with some changes that hopefully will make them more competitive. Things to expect in the Pit given the following changes are defensive builds will fair better against some speed/bleed builds and 2H and pole arm builds will fair better across the board. As always I'll be recording fight result data and if a few knobs still need a little tweaking here and there it will be done to make everything as balanced as possible.


The below changes will go into effect early March:

* A new weapon length mechanic has been put in place whereby shorter weapons vs longer weapons matchups yields less attacks for the shorter weapon due to the fact that it is harder to get within striking distance as the gladiator with the longer weapon will actively be trying to keep their opponent at bay. This will mainly be noticeable in 2H/Pole Arm vs non-2H/Pole Arm matchups but could show up in something like bastard sword vs dagger type matchups but it wouldn't be as pronounced.

* increased the role strength plays in the check to stand up from the ground after being knocked down

* increased the effectiveness of heavy armour

* increased the effectiveness of shields

* decreased the amount of bleeding defensive oriented gladiators receive


Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

Very interesting changes!

Weapon Length sounds very interesting!

And oh ya... defensive warrior love :) got to love it :)

That sounds really good! I wonder how 2H rage will fare with this new system.

This sounds good Nate. I'm excited to see how things will pan out :)

Aaaand back to 2H Belca we go~

Sounds really good. Maybe we'll finally see some bastard swords back into the end game. Not quite sure why the pole arms will be boosted though, they seem to do quite well.

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Originally Posted by Kreegan

Sounds really good. Maybe we'll finally see some bastard swords back into the end game. Not quite sure why the pole arms will be boosted though, they seem to do quite well.

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There is no 2H with similar skills like that polearm (so you can't compare ;)). According your suggestions axes (79.9% and 76.7% top) are performing bad and need buff but polearms (74.8% and 54.8% top) are doing quite well ;).

The only axes that are performing well are the light ones (1.75). There's no gladiator with heavy axes or any other heavy one-handed weapon on top 20 except Razael who's 19th and has one heavy axe (100/100 Rage, extra attacks...). War Hammers are also OK but not the Flails or the Morning Stars. Seeing some trend? :rolleyes:

Awesome!! Glad to hear this. Excited about every single change coming. Most excited about the ability of wars getting back up after a knockdown.

Interesting, we'll see how this turns out. That is an awful lot of buffs at once, hopefully Nate has been careful with the increase/decrease numbers. Tanks will be super strong after the next update, I think.

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hopefully Nate has been careful with the increase/decrease numbers

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I mostly just ask strangers to pick a number between X and Y and run with that. It's worked pretty well so far!:cool:

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Tanks will be super strong after the next update, I think.

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Or as the players who run tanks would probably say "Tanks might finally be tanks" ;)

Defensive builds have always been an interesting challenge to balance in a game meant to simulate gladiatorial combat. As mentioned earlier, everyone should expect some speed/bleed builds to have a tougher time vs some types of builds and 2H and pole arm builds will fair better across the board. Balancing is an ongoing task and adjustments will be made when the data suggests it should. I have no doubt there will be cries of pain from some and sounds of joy from others. :p

http://i.imgflip.com/76f4o.jpg

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

Nate, will weapon lengths now be a stat or will we kinda judge it from the art?

Also, will the reduced attacks for shorter weapons vs longer weapons be based solely on weapon type matchups or will they take into account the class/activity/etc of the glad holding the weapon? For example a rage with 2 hammers would attack 5x and a war with 2 hammers would attack 2-3x. Hopefully the decrease in attacks would scale appropriately (a passive create distance-like effect is pretty powerful).

I would think it would be done with 3 or 4 classes of length. 2h/polearms, large one handers bastard sword, flails, trident etc, medium size one handers mace ace, warhammer maybe, then short one handers short sword, dagger, claws. Then the amount of adjustment would be made based on the number of classes different. Just my opinion. I am happy to see the changes, though I still like the idea of making agi weapons a combo of str/agi for damage to make str more relevant for everyone just like agi is

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Nate, will weapon lengths now be a stat or will we kinda judge it from the art?

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Haven't decided yet, however, using the art and weapon type should give players a good idea.

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Also, will the reduced attacks for shorter weapons vs longer weapons be based solely on weapon type matchups or will they take into account the class/activity/etc of the glad holding the weapon? For example a rage with 2 hammers would attack 5x and a war with 2 hammers would attack 2-3x. Hopefully the decrease in attacks would scale appropriately (a passive create distance-like effect is pretty powerful).

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Nothing in the pits is controlled by one knob. ;)

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

Nate, if you get a chance to speak with some of the helpful strangers, can you discuss a possibility to introduce some sort of knockdown resistence? Strength stacking helping you get up faster is nice of course but it will address only half of the problem, the other half being that knockdowns are incredibly frequent and even 1-2 rounds spent on the ground are usually enough to lose vs. speed builds. All other criticals have a chance to be resisted, why not this one (Dunders excluded)?

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Originally Posted by Kreegan

Nate, if you get a chance to speak with some of the helpful strangers, can you discuss a possibility to introduce some sort of knockdown resistence? Strength stacking helping you get up faster is nice of course but it will address only half of the problem, the other half being that knockdowns are incredibly frequent and even 1-2 rounds spent on the ground are usually enough to lose vs. speed builds. All other criticals have a chance to be resisted, why not this one (Dunders excluded)?

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It's your lucky day! Such a thing already exists! If a Master would like a build to have knockdown resistance simply choose Dunder to be the race of the gladiator. :) How's that for customer service? A feature you wanted was added before you even asked for it! ;)

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

There's also a race with improved Stun resistence and general Stun resistence for all other races + a skill that further improves the Stun resistence (yo dawg, we heard you like to resist so we gave you resistence so you can resist while you resist). Plus, you removed the two rounds Stun a while ago (which was the right thing to do). Something tells me that sooner or later knockdown will be properly balanced too but I guess I have to wait for that not so lucky day to come. :)

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Originally Posted by Kreegan

Plus, you removed the two rounds Stun a while ago

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Taken from this post: http://forum.pitofwar.com/showthread...ew-Skill-Trees!

- Rounds are a little shorter. This means endurance and bleeding can/will play a larger role in the fights. This also means 2 round stuns are staying as the shorter rounds makes stuns sting less.

I haven't seen 2-round stun for many months. Have you?

Looks like this has been implemented. Nate, can you confirm?

There seems to be some "work in progress". Yesterday many of the things mentioned in the (upcoming?) balance pass seems to have been released but today some of them seem to be revoked. For example, yesterday Steel Curtain used to get back on his feet after a knockdown in 1-2 rounds, today he rolls on the ground for the usual 5+ rounds after getting the cute critical. The bleeding damage vs. defensive gladiators is certainly reduced but the protection provided by the heavy armour seems to be flapping. My bet is that Nate is doing a live test. :rolleyes:

it feels like bleeding is reduced a bit too much

My bet is that the balancing pass hasn't been released yet in the slightest and that steel curtain was simply lucky~

I seriously doubt we would have 2 wars with 90% W/L ratio at the first 2 places of the Seasons if the Balance pass didn't happened !

In my opinion this rebalancing clearly advantage wars too much and the endgame was better balanced BEFORE it... But that's just my personal feedback....

Those 2 wars you are speaking of did fairly well last season aswell Narol, I dunno about oedi's but Asatsuo had a rising winrate at the end of the season + he got a new (and better) orange torso now compared to his old purple one.

They have also yet to finish fighting a full round of all of their opponents + the teams are different now with some of the opponents Asatsuo had a hard time against being on the same team now.

Long story short: better armour, other teams, new season and need to make a few full rounds to eliminate the "my glad simply got lucky" factor from the winrate which I tend to set at after 2 weeks have passed.

1122 got 2 new orange items, using 4 more achievments and got auto heal and repair. Which he didnt use for the better part of last season. That can explain the very good start of this season. And until i stoped paying 1122 was ranked in the middle of top 10, and only dropped out after i forgot to repair and he fought several days in broken armor :)

Asatsuo and 1122 are two great glads so it's not surprising to see them in Top 10 but 90% W/L is a lot...

If you add in the picture that Arrrrrghpirate falled to 75% and rank 9th , it's hard to pretend nothing changed in the landscape !

Again (sorry for being such an ass but hey, somebody has to do it) you can't tell anything going by the current winrates, they have far from stabilised.
Glads have yet to fight all glads, this cycle has to occur at the least 3 times to even potentially "remove" the fact that a glad just got lucky in the fight.

Asatsuo got lucky in a fight against Ahhnold for example who threw his 2H sword away and grabbed a grey long sword (I think his muscles finally replaced his brains after verking owt so much). Who knows how that fight might end next time?

Arrrrghpirate got raped by 2H Belca which didn't really happen before and could've suffered from a ko or two aswell to add to the losses, should ask Sotc for verification on the losses :p

the major change in the landscape might be the new teams. But the only reason I still think nothing else has changed are that ive never seen a balance pass or other major change going live without Nate telling its now live.

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Originally Posted by Narol

Asatsuo and 1122 are two great glads so it's not surprising to see them in Top 10 but 90% W/L is a lot...

If you add in the picture that Arrrrrghpirate falled to 75% and rank 9th , it's hard to pretend nothing changed in the landscape !

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With the different teams this season, a big change in w/l isnt surprising. All the new managers are on 1 team (unfortunately) meaning more squishy opponents, plus youre not fighting your own glads and teammates who may have the counterbuild.

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Originally Posted by Prinny

Asatsuo got lucky in a fight against Ahhnold for example who threw his 2H sword away and grabbed a grey long sword (I think his muscles finally replaced his brains after verking owt so much). Who knows how that fight might end next time?

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Hahahahahah. He just felt the pump too much and decided that it was time to go to the dumbells :P

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Originally Posted by Prinny

My bet is that the balancing pass hasn't been released yet in the slightest and that steel curtain was simply lucky~

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Prinny, I know how most of the gladiators in Blood Gods fight, my own guys are not there since yesterday. If the same opponents (not just one) which used to beat the crap out of your fighter last season now can't bring his health under 60-70% with pretty much the same gear on both sides, this is no luck. I haven't changed any strategies recently either. Bleeding is certainly reduced vs. defensive gladiators, only a blind man won't see that. :p There were many changes on day 1, some of which aren't there any more. Maybe Nate uploaded some unfinished build of the game and withdrew it after that or he's just having a test in progress. Whatever the case is, "nothing's changed" is certainly not correct. :)

Been juggling numerous things outside the Great Realm the past few days, sorry for the delay. So, the 64 million dollar question is "Did the balancing pass go live yet?" And the answer is....drum roll please....dududududududududu.

No, but a number of changes have happened such as strategies, gear, races, achievements, teams, etc. I suspect the update will go live soon. I'll make a post when it does.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

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Originally Posted by Nate

Been juggling numerous things outside the Great Realm the past few days, sorry for the delay. So, the 64 million dollar question is "Did the balancing pass go live yet?" And the answer is....drum roll please....dududududududududu.

No, but a number of changes have happened such as strategies, gear, races, achievements, teams, etc. I suspect the update will go live soon. I'll make a post when it does.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

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Told ya~ :D

Ok Prinny, you were right !

Well, then I'm afraid Asatsuo and 1122 will get above 99% once the balancing pass is done... Maybe I should only make wars from now on and throw all my other glads to the dustbin...

yea me too, and another thing is that the equipment gap between the top end glads are reduced. I came to this realization when I was contemplating why I was lagging behind. I had just spread my resources to thin, so I chose 2 glads to focus on and gear up. 1122 is my first glad in full orange gear Ive chosen to use because of what the item give me instead of just equiping any orange item owned by that glad.

I'm a bit skeptical since there is quite a difference between how my fighters behaved on day 1 and how they behave at the moment but OK, I'll take Nate's word for this. :rolleyes:

I'm in the same boat as Oedi, i stopped trying to get an orange or 2 on each glad and focused on a glad on each of my teams, it just happens i picked both of my defensive warriors to go for gear on first (mainly so i would know what pieces where what i wanted as i got drops on each).

Mine don't have the god like win percentages of Eleventwentytwo and Asatsuo but I think they are getting there and am looking forward to the balance pass.