2H rage needs a buff?

[Apoca1ypse]

just so we dont clutter the coming soon thread with something unrelated:


2H rage buff would be nice. needing 500hp more than the other guy to have a chance is a little /sad panda


After reading Kharn's fights all week, it does seem that 2hand rage needs a buff, seeing a 1handed rage with so much less life beat Kharn was silly. I think it would also be nice if one of the higher level rage skills nullified create distance. Most I have seen is 1-2 attacks per round from a 2hand rage, so create distance is just an I WIN skill verse an entire build, and create distance is a skill that anyone can get, it just boggles the mind


i noticed Nate's tip of the week. even running 10/10 zerk and +50 attack power, i'm only seeing 2 attacks a round with a speed 1 weapon.


Thanks for the new tip Nate :)

with the number of attacks per round as far as 2 handed weapons go. Caine throws 2 normally UNLESS his last stand triggers then he's thrown as many as 4 in a round. I've had his Agility as high as 140 and he throws just as many as if his agi was 80. honestly i'm beginning to doubt the effects of armor movement. laharl has already stated that he didnt see any increase in attacks. and the penalty to initiative from heavy armor is alot more severe than light armor.


Armor movement skill increases initiative not number of attacks. The higher the initiative the more likely your glad will get the jump on his opponent each round. This is very critical for glads using 2-hand weapons.

Also the lower the bloodlust the quicker your glad is in their attacks...think of it like this..the more you wind up to hit someone the longer it takes.

As for create distance.. It is an absolute killer for 2-hand weapon glads.. Most of Eruption's and Sliver's losses come from getting create distanced to death. They rarely lose a shot for shot fight. But this is a hard skill for Nate to control because a level 10 cd skill will occur once a round...which kills a 2-handed..but is not a huge deal for someone who attacks 3 or more times a round. Only way I think to solve this is put a filter in the simulation program that decreases the chances slightly that a CD will occur per round for a glad using a 2-hand weapon...my reasoning for this is that those are larger weapons requiring more distance in a fight..so it would be harder to kick them out of the way. This is just a thought.. I'm sure others have feeling on this.


carry on

[TwoDie]

So what exactly are we looking for here.......? It looks like rage community would like more attacks a round ? or is it more attack on the weapons ? Or the initive thing so they can't get dominated as easy with CD and agility through the roof and 10 attacks or more per round? or am i missing it all or something ?

[Apoca1ypse]

well, 2H rage has the ability to do heaps of damage in 1 swing, so getting extra swings may be imbalanced...though 1 extra swing a round may be ok. CD is still incredibly rough to 2H, as is hamstring. it also seems like most of the rage skills are simply better when combined with a dual weapon fighting style.

Initiative boost wont help much because CD and hamstring can still screw it over hardcore.

[Cynaidh]

I personally think that CD is the biggest problem, the fact that all three types of glads can take it and nullify 50% of the attacks that a 2H rage does is just wrong. Perhaps something like removing the crippling might skill from rage (Combine its effect with devastating power, they kind of go together anyways) and replace it with a skill at that rank that "Increases attack speed and distance with two-handed weapons" and what this would do is allow a high level 2h Rage to get up to 3 attacks per round and a % chance to nullify CD. So we would end up seeing something like:

KHARN smashes his WYRMWOOD MAUL downward.
LAHARL kicks KHARN in the chest knocking him out of striking range! (-Create Distance-)
KHARN over-extends his WYRMWOOD MAUL (-2Hand Extend-)
Jarring blow to LAHARL's back looks very painful! (+122 Damage) <--- OP Heavy armor :P

[crow]

My only suggestion for both 2 hand Rage and War....would be a SLIGHT reduction in the chance for a create distance..for those using a 2 hand weapon. With only an attack or 2 a round and getting CD'ed 4 or 5 rounds in a row is an absolute killer. But I am against these weapons getting an extra attack or 2 per round...due to the massive damage that they cause (especially by a Rager). Another variable to factor in is fighting style..this is a main source of defense for a defensive glad..especially defensive war.

All this factors into the balancing of the game which right now looks okay, it is not like the 2-handers are getting shut out at the bottom...Cainedesolis..Eruption..Sliver..Kharn..ec t... are all doing good. With different types of builds starting to get stronger, this game is now showing more versatility. Unlike in the past when there were one or 2 dominant builds and the rest were getting shutout...now different builds are winning at the highest levels of the game. Now more than ever fight strategy, healing injuries, and just keeping up...is playing a huge role in this game.

[Cynaidh]

Not sure if I agree. That hit above was from last nights blood games.

Jarring blow to LAHARL's back looks very painful! (+122 Damage)

That's a 2H Rage getting a hit on a Warrior in full heavy armor. The largest non-Rampage hit that KHARN got in that fight was 268. His rampage hit was for 777. Those don't seem like massive hits to me, even the rampage wasn't really massive and it only happens once a fight.

Caine's fight seems very similar, he is pulling off bigger normal hits 400's -500's (not counting rampage), but again he won because Bloodbath Ii's CD never went of one time during the fight, and Caine only won by 560 hit points even though he started with almost 300 hit points more then Bloodbath Ii, one CD could have won the fight for Bloodbath Ii easily.

You can really see the effect of Hamstring and the Heavy Armor in Eruption vs Laphroaig again from the blood games. Eruptions first hit was a hamstring, causing Laphroaig to get 1 attack in the first round instead of his normal 4-6, and that one attack bounced off the heavy armor, he never gets another attack due to Eruption killing him (two hits 550 and 559, these two hits are MORE damage then Caine did in his fight per hit).

So in those examples we have a warrior using bastard swords who is hitting for up to the low 500's in damage, and another warrior hitting for mid 500's with a great sword, while the one of the rage's didn't get a hit above 268 damage, the other in the low 500's, and the last rage didn't get a single hit in. So for non rampage hits in a rage vs warrior fight the warriors actually seem to hit harder then the rages (this is a rather small sample pool of fights i'll admit) and if i had to call any of the hits massive it would be the 500 damage hits with a bastard sword. It makes you wonder if the warriors even need CD and Hamstring to be competitive with rages.

[CaineDeSoulis]

2 Bastard Swords tend to attack 4-5 times per round for 300-500 damage
the max I have seen from a non injury hit was 700 from a prey rampage

Two Handed Weapons tend to attack for 1-3 times per round doing 400-600 damage
The max i have seen from a non injury hit is 1250 from a Caine sunder armor.

The maximum damage obviously favor's the 2 hander but those shots are a very rare occurrence. maybe once a week Caine will bust out a 900+ shot.

When it comes to a 2handed rager in paticular they have almost no defense, are very slow, rely heavily on Last Stand, and normally do damage comparable to end game wars.

i'm also using Killshot with Caine meaning i get 1 accurate shot per round 2 if i last stand. which really isnt even an option with CD running around but it's the only way to do enough damage consistantly without being torn apart by CounterStrikeing theatrics relying on the Berserk Initiative boost.

[Cynaidh]

Well this thread has made me think that perhaps a 2handed offensive Arms would be much better offensive gladiator then a 2handed Rage could hope to be, and since the only thing I can do is give it a try I just picked up this slave:

str 83 Int 77 Agi 70 Stam 61 Size 80 Pres 66 Chi 65 ( i know stam sucks but i'll fix it with gear, 50/100/150 win achievement, and a few trophies)

And am going to do a simple set of skills that i think will make him be a better 2 handed warrior then a rage can be.
2 handed 10
Feint 10
Create Distance 10
Armour Movement 10
War Cry 10
Hamstring 10

Brute Force 10
Barreling 10
Blood Drunk 10
Last Stand 10

I'll let ya know in a few months how it turns out ;)

[CaineDeSoulis]

I've got a glad doing the same thing actually lol

currently 9 2 handed
feint 5
CD 7
Armour 2
Grim 2
Death from above 2
War cry 5
hamstring 5
Athleticsim 4
Brute Force 8
Barreling 8
Last Stand 7
Blood Drunk 7

Can we All agree 2 handed Rages need help? and does anyone have potential solution? Increasing Attacks would definatley help but it could be over powering.

[Apoca1ypse]

i agree, increasing the number of attacks could be OP, but short of making create distance proc less against them and maybe less chance for an armor deflection against it, i dont know what could be done.

[Apoca1ypse]

so running 9/10 zerk vs thunderlips in the bloodgames today. didnt get any swings round 1, and KO'd before getting to swing round 2...

lips got 5 swings round 1 (for a total of 950 damage) and 1 swing round 2, getting a KO


Now, it was a KO, but being able to actually get some swings each round would be nice



edit: arena fight 73 with eternal. he wins with 6 swings 1st round and 1 swing 2nd round, for a total of 2000 damage. Kharn didnt swing once in either round

[Dainoji]

Kharn got stunned in round 1, that's why he didn't swing. Train up Iron Jaw, I've found it to be very useful.

[Dainoji]

So with all this activity about two-handers I just did a quick look as the "forest through the trees" perspective since I'm not emotionally invested in 2H builds and for the most part they are equal or have slightly better win percentages than the other builds. This is just a casual observation and don't expect it to change the minds of those who feel they're behind the 8-ball here, but check the top 10 two-handers in the game.

Eruption 59.5%
Cainedesoulis 59.4%
Sliver 58.9%
Bloodbath Ii 56.3%
Beta 59.3%
Kharn 57.1%
Maria 65.1%
Rarg 58.3%
Blarg 60%
General Disaray 54.2%

The average top ranked gladiator in Blood Gods and Maximus is arround 55%-60%, probably if I did the math we'd end up with about 57% or so.

Not really sure I'm seeing an unbalance here when taking a step back and looking at the numbers.

Starting passionate arguments in 3....2....1....go! ;)

[CaineDeSoulis]

Maria uses a polearm and so does bloodbath and beta. so the top 10 2 handed RAGE gladiators

1.Caine Blood God 4
2.Sliver Blood God 7
3.Kharn Blood God 18
4.Rarg Warlord 2
5.Blarg Warlord 7
6.General Disarray Warlord 11
7.Iraname Warlord 16
8.Collosus Warlord 28
9.Gypsy Warlord 30
10.Clinton Pitlord 3

The Reason Caine is doing well is last stand 10 coupled with maximum hp bonus. meaning he has in effect 2400 hp. not to mention relying on last stand totally.

[oedi]

Ive followed this debate for a while now and i must say that im amazed that the most powerful type of gladiators in the game are asking for help to get up and ahead. These gladiators got W/L ratios on the same % like most of the other gladiators in their brackets. Its only Laharl, Narvalo and Alpha II with better ratios than the best 2h rager guys. Its some new guys with mid 60 W/L but they probably entered the high brackets with better than 70%.

With powerful gladiator i mean this:
2 H ragers are the best killers in the game. Of the 8 gladiators in the game with 40 or more kills 6 are rage, and 4 of them are 2h rage. The other 2 are theatrics.
The only gladiators currently able to beat the current last arena challenge are the 2 H ragers. I know that 2 KO theatrics beat them to it, but given enough tries youll KO any opponent sooner or later. The 2H ragers beat them down on Hp and as far as i know no other designs has been able to do so.

If it ever was a need for a fix that came with the latest tournament. More points for kills and less penalty for deaths. And the most important being less penalty for dieing, since ragers has a tendency to die more than the 2 other specialities. With the new point system we have in my view the most exciteing games yet. All the current top designs in the top 10. And since this is the topic about buffing 2h ragers id like to mention that 2h rage hold 3 spots in the top 10. The same as duel wielding ragers. 2 spots for my theatrics, and 1 spot for duel wielding War and 1 spot for 2H war.

Youve probably guessed by now that i dont think 2H ragers need any buffs or further help to get by in the Pit of War.


The Reason Caine is doing well is last stand 10 coupled with maximum hp bonus. meaning he has in effect 2400 hp. not to mention relying on last stand totally.
This is what the game is about!!!! finding combinations of skill, stats, achivements, weapons and strategy to be able to win more than your opponents. Are you actually complaining about that youve found a winning formula for your 2H rage?
And im sure there are more ways to make your 2h rage a winner.

[Apoca1ypse]

i agree, the current bloodgames format is awesome.

Also, Kharn has only started having some success after doing the same as Caine: running 1900hp. However, he still struggles with glads over 1200hp. Again, something is wrong when a 700hp buffer is required. heck, even DW glads with <1000hp are a struggle because of the differences in attack rate. oh, and Tier 5 Boss was only beaten by a lucky KO. Kharn always lost after getting in 1, maybe 2 swings if i was lucky....


personally, I believe that DW rage is the more potent rage style as it has a better shot at getting around CD etc, and sure as hell has the better matchup vs 2H rage. so to you, what justifies 2H rage as the most powerful? because you have more difficuly with them or because they are dominating ladders? If it is the latter, the question is why? is it simply because more more managers run 2H rage because that seems to have been a trend as of late.

2H war imo is also better than 2H rage in that they have access to CD and heavy armor, so they survive longer to do their swings. they also have hamstring which factors in a little. They are poorly represented in the population, yet they perform very well.

I dont want 2H rage to become "I win" but i would like them to feel like they have a chance against some builds. If i could redistribute my successful trains to another gladiator, i'd have some 2H+ DW war, and more DW rage in a heartbeat.










anyway, fundamentally my issues with 2H rage are thus:

- Create distance reams them because of their low swing rate, and this is compounded by hamstring sometimes.
- Often they dont even get to swing in round 1.

[CaineDeSoulis]

alright no buffs....i just never want to make an off handed strike with caine again....or have armour stop a 900+ Damage rampage with zero effect. or the fact CD completely negates an attack with ZERO penalty.

yes 2h ragers represent in the tops but of ragers they are by far the most plentiful throughout the game. Apocalypse will not be brought down as easily as you may think from a 2hander. Caine's been fighting apoc for a month or 2 now daily. I've gotten him down pretty low 1400hp >.<. but i can still only land 2 shots on him one of them being a level 10 rampage which does between 1/3 hp and 1/2hp but thats a trick i can only throw once. I've had to change caines stratagy and gear to be able to fight off the counterstriker's. I understand the disadvantages of using a 2handed rage. we auto lose to anything relatively fast 1.5 and faster. have a poor matchup against 2h offensive war.we are stunned/disarmed/knocked down/KO'd/blinded easier than any other gladiators and are damage is comparable to war gladiators. not to mention the injuries and deaths coming much easier and if you want to compete in the top spot's you have to build defensively with a stamina buff or as many points as you can spare into CD and never run Berserk or Killshot. Which is counter productive to ENTIRE rage design. Yes we can deal some ridiculous damage but in all the fights Ive seen its either been in Blood Lust range or an injury hit or just a Rare Monster Hit. On my Re gearing of Caine the only stat i'm going to be concerned with is STR I want to break 200 STR all my armor pieces need to add 13-14 STR and my weapon needs to add 20+. personally I'd like to to know if the law of diminishing returns on stats apply.

the 700hp buffer is not a winning strategy its a prevention of losing immediately strategy. all the extra hp has done is made my fights more fair and given me the hopes of stealing fights with a last stand trigger. if i haven't been disarmed or stunned or blinded. skill wise caine *should* be doing near maximum damage Weapon 10 Brute 10 Overwhelming Pre 9 Sunder 9 Rampage 10 last stand 10. base str 95

Zombie

Stable

Foodforlions
394-270-46

Record

266-146-16
6' 8"

Height

6' 5"
294

Weight

253
50

Level

40
Blood God

Bracket

Blood God
4th

Rank

17th
The Unmerciful

Title

The Underdog

Bone Crushing Highlights
Blow-By-Blow Details

Both warriors stare at one another before taking their positions!
R O U N D 1
>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
>> MARIA SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
CAINEDESOULIS attacks fiercely.
MARIA kicks CAINEDESOULIS in the chest knocking him out of striking range! (-Create Distance-)
MARIA moves with unbridled energy.
MARIA's BLOODSIDIAN GLAIVE slams toward CAINEDESOULIS with bone-shattering force.
MARIA looks to hamstring CAINEDESOULIS! (-Hamstring-)
The blow to CAINEDESOULIS's spine lands with monstrous force! (+417 Damage)

CAINEDESOULIS winces as he is knocked off balance and sent to the ground!
>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 4
R O U N D 2
CAINEDESOULIS almost gets up onto his feet, but gets kicked back down!
>> MARIA SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 3
MARIA jumps and leaps around CAINEDESOULIS.
MARIA makes an executioner style strike with his bloody BLOODSIDIAN GLAIVE.
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
MARIA connects with his BLOODSIDIAN GLAIVE inflicting titanic wounds! (+698 Damage)

Blood pours from CAINEDESOULIS's battle wounds!!
R O U N D 3
CAINEDESOULIS almost gets up onto his feet, but gets kicked back down!
CAINEDESOULIS is no longer affected by Hamstring
CAINEDESOULIS moves around on the ground looking for an opening to strike.
CAINEDESOULIS rams into MARIA and seeks to hammer him.
MARIA kicks CAINEDESOULIS in the chest knocking him out of striking range! (-Create Distance-)
MARIA moves with unbridled energy.
MARIA quickly attacks.
Wicked hit destroys CAINEDESOULIS's collarbone sending shards of bone flying everywhere! (+496 Damage)

>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 2
CAINEDESOULIS is bleeding very badly from several wounds!!!
CAINEDESOULIS lets forth the roar of a lion and prepares to leave it all on the sands! (-Last Stand-)
CAINEDESOULIS attempts to strike from the ground.
CAINEDESOULIS whirls around, lashing out with a vicious backhanded strike.
Awesome shot nearly caves in MARIA's skull! (+293 Damage)

>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 4
MARIA has small cuts and bruises from today's fight!
MARIA seeks to strike CAINEDESOULIS.
MARIA tries to fake CAINEDESOULIS out with a few twirls of his weapon! (-Feint-)
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
Massive shot caves in CAINEDESOULIS's chest! (+816 Damage)

>> CAINEDESOULIS SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 2
CAINEDESOULIS's life is spared as the Enforcer steps in and commands MARIA to stop!
A city official collects his bet and nods his head toward the victor!

[CaineDeSoulis]

Caine had 1900hp with a 450hp Last Stand Maria has 1091hp

After that fight theyre are no 2handed ragers in the top 10.

[Apoca1ypse]

Bloodgame Kharn vs Eternal.

kharn is in all purple gear lvl 48+. eternal is in lvl 31- 47 blues, with a lvl 41 main hand purple. guess who lost without swinging....

R O U N D 1
>> KHARN SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
>> ETERNAL SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
ETERNAL tries to bash his opponent with his MASTERWORK CLUB.
ETERNAL roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
ETERNAL smiles after the mighty hit to KHARN's forearm! (+651 Damage)

KHARN cries aloud as his body is sent crashing to the ground by the attack!
Resisted Stun Effect!
KHARN has minor cuts and bruises on his body!
ETERNAL moves with unbridled energy.
ETERNAL decides to attack with the other hand.
ETERNAL attempts to slash KHARN.
ETERNAL looks to seriously damage KHARN's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
ETERNAL's attack lands on KHARN's arm creating beastly injuries! (+276 Damage)

ETERNAL charges furiously to and fro.
ETERNAL overruns KHARN and tries to maim him.
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
Incredible smash to what used to be KHARN's stomach brings the crowd to their feet! (+482 Damage)

KHARN glances at some of the larger wounds on his body!!
ETERNAL seeks to bash his enemy with his MASTERWORK CLUB.
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
The blow to KHARN's torso lands with mammoth force! (+442 Damage)
KHARN can't take much more of this beating!!!
ETERNAL moves with unbridled energy.
ETERNAL whips around with his off hand.
ETERNAL overruns KHARN and attempts to slice his enemy.
ETERNAL is aiming at KHARN's midsection.
An old injury is hit and magnifies the damage!
Slash to KHARN's sternum opens a sucking chest wound! (+269 Damage)
ETERNAL grins as he readies the finishing blow but the Enforcer saves the conquered warrior KHARN!
The Enforcer kicks the beaten gladiator and orders the loser to be removed from the sands!
The fight lasted 8 seconds!

[Dainoji]

I suppose this would be a good spot to post Thunder Lips's fight against Caine where Caine wins. Does that then prove 2H Rage doesn't need a boost? Posting a fight showing a loss doesn't help the argument that one side is weaker than another. If you really want to prove an argument or lend credibility to it, you'll first need to figure out a way to explain why 2H rage gladiator's win percentage is pretty much the same as the rest. I'm a huge rage fan and for awhile was sympathetic to the 2H rage cause, but after looking at the winning percentages and seeing no glaring problem, it's tough to see where the imbalance is. My guess is when a 2H rage gladiator loses he loses big time, maybe without even getting in a hit which brings up the perception that they are underpowered, but all that matters at the end of the day in regards to balance is that winning percentage and it clearly shows without a doubt that 2H rage gladiators are getting just as many wins as the other builds. It's hard to argue with such hard facts as those. Now, one could maybe argue that 2H rage are unbalanced vs certain builds and all those "wins" bringing their winning percentage up are against other builds that they do well against, but that would take some serious data mining and even then who is to say that the gladiator simply isn't spec'd to beat that difficult build who tends to beat them all the time which is why a lowest common denominator value like "winning percentage" is a pretty good indicator to use.

[Cynaidh]

Part of the win percentage thing I believe is that rages seem very over powered in the lower tiers it wasn't until legends/pit lords that my rages that are that high went below 75-80% win ratio, now that they are in the pit lord/warlord they are dropping rapidly, and most fights that they loose i either see a lot of CD now, or I face another Rage that got the jump on me. I would guess its even worse at higher levels as they will see more and more glads with max or near max CD.

A good example of this from my guys is Legend (58th) Varqus 120 - 21 - 6, sitting at 85% in legends, over half of those losses have been since he entered legends. Now he is a duel wield but this pattern just seems to hold true for rages in general.

[CaineDeSoulis]

Winning Percentage is kinda scewed especially considering how easy it is to go 50-60 fights in a row without a single loss. and you only start losing at around the top 10% so your record would be like 200-50. you still need 150 losses to hit 50% win loss rate. I have a glad named tourach using lvl 21 gear he's lvl 36 almost 37 in the bottom of pit lords been there a month or 2 probably realisticly wins <20% of his fights now. and still has a 63% win loss 237-139. I think the opposite is true actually just because 2handers can win in the early fights and so many arena challenges are 2handers and that 2handers can unleash some monstrous hits that *scare* other managers. in those facts the 2hander looks over powered when in reality were the Glass Cannon Build's. Extremely Inconsistent and rarely dominating but we are the master's of lucky shots.

If they're were a strategy for "if opponent has a 2handed weapon" 2h rages would be completely screwed. Literally all you would need is 10 activity 5-10 blood lust and an attacking strategy. this doesn't apply to other 2handers and people using a shield. unless your using speed 2 or higher with a shield. Prey loves fighting 2h ragers especially and i do have quite of bit experience with prey beating 2handed ragers.

[crow]

After reading these threads and hearing some of complaints...I did some research and have come up with a few conclusions. First of all, I keep hearing that a 2 hander keeps getting jumped on and is having a hard time getting a shot in. Well after burning quite a few trophies and scouting many 2 handed rages....I found one major problem with many of their builds...There armor movement skill is way too low. level 5-8 is not going to cut it period!! There are too many glads in the top tier of the game sporting 110+ agility, and in order to get your glad's shot off first is to crank up the armor movement to level 10. The only glads that will beat a level 10 AM rage to the punch is a level 10 AM and level 10 war cry War, or any glad with exceptional agility 150+ using a small weapon, with a decent amount of AM skill investment. Another skill to boost up high is barreling attack, having a prone opponent will take away some of his initiative and number of attacks..allowing you the ability to have more attack opportunity.
As for facing level 10 Create distances...yes it is frustrating when you glad gets CD'ed 3-5 rounds in row and gets slaughtered in the arena because of this...but this does not happen that often..normally it will just cost you glad a round or two. Also this skill is available to all builds.... and the more offensive minded the glad the less it goes off...if you are facing a parrying glad..yes it will go off dang near every round..but in many cases like this a 2 handed rage will get a 2nd attack in a round...I know because I have seen plenty of fights with Cypress vs plenty of 2 handed rages.

Well that is my 2 cents for the day...look forward to reading further.

[CaineDeSoulis]

if you plan on using Killshot get your armor rating to 10 if your using Berserk all the time get it to 5 or so. you'll still get the first swing a large majority of the time UNLESS your against another rager then it comes down to the AM skill. Even with what youve seen with caine crow i can still berserk and get the first swing in against eruption.

[Apoca1ypse]

It's true, percentages dont mean much when it's easy to get to the higher ranks with an amazing w/l ratio, and it'll take ages to make it look mediocre.


interesting fight between Kharn vs Alpha Ii

Alpha Ii - 2x speed 1.15 swords
Kharn - speed 1 maul

round 1
Alpha Ii - 2 swings
Kharn - 1 swing (negated by create distance)

round 2
Alpha Ii - 1 swing
Kharn - 1 swing (negated by create distance)

Round 3
Alpha Ii - 1 swing (hamstring)
Kharn - 0

round 4
Alpha Ii - 1 swing (triggers 118hp last stand)
Kharn - 1 swing (rampage)

Round 5
Alpha Ii - 1 swing
Kharn - 2 swings and the win.


total swings
Alpha Ii - 6
Kharn - 5 (2 negated by CD)

total damage
Alpha Ii - 1479
Kharn - 1500

I think Alpha Ii should have maybe a few more times given the extra weapon, but at least it was consistent. Kharn seems to have been as well, and at least got to swing rounds 1 and 2 (regardless of CD) and damage output was about even, with rage slightly ahead given that Alpha Ii's hit some injuries. so overall this match up looks fair and implies 2H rage is fine, at least vs slower war styles.


It seems again though that DW rage is the anti 2H rage.

Rarg vs Limpy.

Limpy - speed 1.45 axe, speed 1.2 mace
Rarg - speed 1 ball and chain


Round 1
Limpy - 4 swings (sunder, rampage, shock)
Rarg - 0 swings

Round 2
Limpy - 3 swings (triggers last stand for 208hp)
Rarg - 1 swing (rampage)

Round 3
Limpy - 2 swings (barreling, Sunder)
Rarg - 0 swings

Total swings
Limpy - 9
Rarg - 1

Total Damage
Limpy - 2087
Rarg - 847

This fight seems much more imbalanced. damage output and swing rate are both stupidly different. yes, this is 1 fight but i have posted a bunch of other fights with other DW ragers where the same thing happened.

[oedi]

It will aways be easy to find fights that support your side. My particular nightmare against 2h rages is when my gladiator is murdering the rage until he gets to last stand, then the rage wins the fight by landing 2 blows. That is the other side of the examples entered in this thread. 2h rages does as Dainoji says; win or loose big time.

Ive done a little bit of research myself to compare how the different styles have done lately.
I picked a date in late august and calculated the W/L ratios for 12 gladiators from then til now dec.16.
in this period all 12 gladiators has been a part of the top end game, so no easy matches to inflate your W/L ratio.
Ive listed them in best period W/L %
#1
Laharl current #2
dec.16 332-98-27 77.2%
sept.22 161-17-12 90.4% (first fight i could find on Laharl)
period record 171-81-15 67.8%

#2
Ormgar current# 4
dec. 16 484-342-31 58.6%
aug.17 258-233-18 52.5%
period record 226-109-13 67.4%

#3
Narvalo current# 3
dec.16 400.246-46 61.9%
aug.30 209-143-25 59.4%
period record 191-103-21 64.9%

#4
Eruption current #1
dec.16. 400-269-39 59.8%
aug.17. 200-152-22 56.8%
period record 200-117-17 63%

#5
Alpha II current top DW war below top 4
dec.16 446-279-26 61.5%
aug.20 241-147-13 62.1%
period record 205-132-13 60.8%

#6
Sliver 2h rage #2
dec.16 448-317-46 58.6%
aug.29 250-183-28 57.7%
period record 198-134-18 59.6%

#7
Thunder lips current top DW rage(actually that is summit but i couldnt find a refrence fight in late august)
dec.16 474-402-44 54.1%
aug.22 269-250-32 51.8%
period record 205-152-12 57.4%

#8
Kharn 2h rage #3
dec.16 451-341-41 56.9%
aug.23 253-192-32 56.8%
period record 198-149-9 57.1%

#9
Rarg 2h rage #4
dec.16 363-258-32 58.5%
aug.27 194-119-18 61.9%
period record 169-139-14 54.8%

#10
CainDeSolis 2h rage #1
dec.16. 398-273-46 59.3%
aug.13. 217-105-27 67.3%
period record 181-168-19 51.8%

#11
Bloodbath II current top 2h war below top 4
dec.16 401-313-35 56.2%
aug.31 334-151-20 60.7%
period record 167-162-15 50.8%

#12
Azure current top theatrics below top 4
dec.16 355-375-15 48.6%
sept.2 214-181-11 54.1%
period record 141-194-14 42.1%

[CaineDeSoulis]

#12
Azure current top theatrics below top 4
dec.16 355-375-15 48.6%
sept.2 214-181-11 54.1%
period record 141-194-14 42.1%

#10
CainDeSoulis 2h rage #1
dec.16. 398-273-46 59.3%
aug.13. 217-105-27 67.3%
period record 181-168-19 51.8%

didnt realise I was doing so poorly post update. Azure is going to need an re-gearing to get back into shape >.<. Tho the Knockouts are hilarious i suspect I'll have to change him to win by other means lol. Caine I'm really not sure what to do with :\.

as a side note i'm jealous of your scribe >.<

[Warmonger]

Oedi, glad to see somebody is keeping track of this stuff. I lost what little records I had been keeping when I had to wipe my HD about a month ago.

Those are some interesting numbers. That's the kind of stuff we need to be looking at to truly determine trends.

[Apoca1ypse]

ooh, timelapse records. much more useful than overall.

i gotta goto work, but i'll look at these closer when i'm back home

[Cynaidh]

That's some interesting data.

I wish we had more info about match ups though, one thing i miss about duelmasters in a case like this i could just bust out the arena reports for the past year and crunch the numbers and break down each gladiator in a win/loss record vs each style. What i mean is its nice to know Laharl has a 67.8% win loss for that period, but it be really interesting to see what his w/l vs 2h rage, w/l vs DW rage, w/l vs 2h arms, w/l vs DW arms, and w/l vs theatrics. I'd love to see that data for the top 25 or so glads.

[Apoca1ypse]

ok i'm tired and having a better look at that, i'm surprised that my glads are doing that well in w/l.

i'm curious to see what the change in the next 3 months is though with the amount of DW rage entering the top tiers though. i know i've been fighting them a lot more recently and i guess it's a big part of where the butthurt feeling is coming from

[TwoDie]

So in general. It seems most 2h rage win quite a bit of there early game fights then lack in late game? So early on 2h rage gets nerf and later get buffed for most balancing possible?

[crow]

So in general. It seems most 2h rage win quite a bit of there early game fights then lack in late game? So early on 2h rage gets nerf and later get buffed for most balancing possible?

Actually anyone with a decent understanding of the game will win alot early on...no matter what build. As the Oedi's research showed..a diligent manager with a good game plan for their glad, will keep winning even at the highest level of the game...just not at a 80% clip. As far as the 2-hand Rage goes...I would have to agree with an earlier statement " they either win big or loose big" which can be frustrating for a manager.

[Apoca1ypse]

I guess my frustration as of late is having 2400 damage dealt to my gladiator before he even gets to swing.

[TwoDie]

Kind of an intimidation kind of deal there. It feels like (when I'm fighting certain fights) my glad doesn't have enough inaitive to swing once, the whole fight, which is kind of sucks and tend to get me glads killed