Another Example of stacking

[Team Kaos]

SUMMIT's DREAMWOOD CUDGEL crashes down with tremendous power.


SUMMIT looks to seriously damage ANGER RISING's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
SUMMIT spins into a tornado of death and destruction! (-Total Carnage-)
Deft strike to the abdomen destroys several useful organs! (+138 Damage)
• Summit's Attack Power: +5 (1 round)
• Possible Serious Injury

SUMMIT unleashes an unforgiving shot! (-Crippling Might-)

Really now...tell me what a War has that comes remotely close to this in causing damage...the only reason Anger Rising survived is his massive armor (he is clad in the heaviest armor of anyone in the game) He did recieve a class 2 injury from this hit however.

[Dainoji]

He did 138 points of damage...obviously the stacking didn't do much. I'll add to this that a war gladiator shouldn't have anything that comes close to equaling the damage output of a rage gladiator, that is their specialty. Just like you won't find rage gladiators wearing full plate or blocking attacks on a consistent basis.

[Team Kaos]

His damage was mitigated by Anger Rising massive armor, otherwise if he hit anyone else it would have been obscene damage. He sports 100+ armor all over.
The point wasn't that a War should match damage output, but that a War and Theatrics don't have stacking skills at all..while a Rage has about 5 or 6 that can stack at the same time causing ending damage or at least reduce a gladiator to near useless.

[Dainoji]

His damage was mitigated by Anger Rising massive armor, otherwise if he hit anyone else it would have been obscene damage. He sports 100+ armor all over.

Exactly, your "special privilege" as a war gladiator being able to wear heavy armor mitigated the "rage stacking". So a rage manager has to dump points into 3 skills and you have to wear some armor to prevent the above example. Seems like a pretty good deal to me if I were a war glad.

War's "stacking" works more indirectly I think. Heavy armor + create distance + tank/parry-x + hamstring, etc. They also have numerous skills that are always working for them the whole fight long and can't be blocked or prevented which makes them powerful.

Theatrics being the hybrid class they are depends a lot on how they are built. Looking at the skill tree it is obvious a defensive build could be troublesome: shield + medium armor + second wind + show off + parry-x. Offensively you obviously have signature move and GV that have been the main reason for many a loss in the arena.

If you are looking for the whirlwind of death and destruction recruit a rage gladiator because that just isn't what they teach in the other specialties.

I'd stop looking at skills in a one for one manor and instead step back and examine the big picture because when I do that things seem to be pretty balanced IMO.

[Dehodem]

YEa...,

The more i se war the more i see how the heavy armor is unbalance. i personaly think that there one flaw to the heavy armor (that whit lvl are more and more op), so ill try it and tell about it again but that still a long shot...

[Team Kaos]

So we have all seen the mega damage inflicted upon Lords Fury by Kharn this morning. For those who wish for yet another gruesome slo-mo instant replay..here it is.


KHARN runs frantically around LORDS FURY.
KHARN leaps forward viciously pummeling LORDS FURY with his HEROIC GREAT AXE.
LORDS FURY
KHARN
0/1406
306/923
87/96
45/57
Prone
prone
Attack Power
-5
Attack Power
-5
Number of Attacks
34%

LORDS FURY backs up a few inches as KHARN descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Huge slash to the forehead removes LORDS FURY's scalp and the top portion of his skull...probably took a few memories as well! (+1072 Damage)

Wow....looks even worse in slo-mo. However looks can be deceiving, Lords Fury got up and walked away on his own and turned down any medical assistance.

Now, for the matter at hand...Titanic damage and just how is it being produced.

Kharn is very strong but he is not the strongest, he is not anywhere near being overly big, he doesn't use a mega power weapon for his rank but does have high Chi and does have a pretty good skill set build...but still has lots of points to go to really top those skills off.
So exactly where is the power coming from..and is it a bit to much power.

Let's break down this beatdown.

Moments before the hit from hell, we saw Lords Fury do ...THIS!


LORDS FURY readies a strike from the ground.
LORDS FURY raises his EPIC HALBERD overhead and viciously slices at KHARN.
LORDS FURY
KHARN
822/1406
306/923
90/96

49/57
Prone
prone
Attack Power
-5
Attack Power
-5
Number of Attacks
34%

The blow to KHARN's tricep lands with magnificent force! (+386 Damage)
• Possible Serious Injury

KHARN's arm might never fully heal!!! *** Serious Injury ***
KHARN pauses for a moment to catch his breath.
KHARN tries to give up!!!

So Kharn now has a serious injury to his arm which I believe in the instant reply we saw him using to hold his 2 handed weapon. We also see Kharn with just 1/3 of his health left and trying to give up, and he is actually beginning to get tired.

We now move forward again to witness the powershot of the century to Lords Fury noggin.




KHARN lets forth the roar of a lion and prepares to leave it all on the sands! (-Last Stand-)
KHARN runs frantically around LORDS FURY.
KHARN leaps forward viciously pummeling LORDS FURY with his HEROIC GREAT AXE.
LORDS FURY
KHARN
0/1406
306/923
87/96
45/57
Prone
prone
Attack Power
-5
Attack Power
-5
Number of Attacks
34%

LORDS FURY backs up a few inches as KHARN descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)

I don't think we need to witness the devastation again.

So he did not hit an injury, he did not set off Rampage which increases damage, he did not get the skill of blood drunk neither since Fury still had more then half his health left as well as being nearly fresh as Mike Tyson after laying out Tony Tubbs.

So did it come from Last Stand or Shock and Awe? Or both.......well Last Stand states that is does not increase power at all..just health and Endurance...so it can't be from that ( so we are told). So it must be coming from Shock and Awe..yes? We do not get to see what Kharns shock value is on Lords Fury since the hit ended the fight...but Kharns skill is not all to high in Shock and Awe..so I cannot believe it allows such damage to multiply from it.

So as my piss and moan segment comes to end...I would love to know where this titanic power comes from in Rage's....I'm just not seeing how it generates at the end of the fights once Last Stand kicks in....how are the becoming doubly stronger then when they start fresh in a fight.

And as Apoca1ypse mentions this was not done vs puny leather ..it did connect on medium armor.

[CaineDeSoulis]

Actually its really simple mathematically, assuming a level 40+ greataxe high end damage output is about 400 and some change. Mine is so I'll assume his is and he is using kill shot AND his str is about 100.

Now we dont have any set parameters to work with so I'll use my best guess and experience with rage gladiators to help. so lets assume kill shot is -x initiative +50% damage output lets also assume str adds 1 point to weapon damage. its a safe bet to say that a critical shot does more damage than a normal shot as well so another 50% for that so (400+100)*1.5*1.5 = +1125-32=+1093 this is pretty close for guessing on both weapon damage and str.

Now as for last stand, it would make no sense at all if last stand only restored 10-100hp and 1-10 stamina. it would be completely useless past level 5. What it does is +10-100hp +1-10 stam + X initiative.

Most 2 handed rage gladiators have setups where they run kill shot for tanks at least. I use it to make last stand more effective for me its Caine Switches to Strat 3 (Kill shot) Last stand, Kill shot attack. It may be +x initiative for the remainder of the round or fight even. I know if my strat switch waits until after my last stand attack I do ALOT less damage and usually lose.

[Team Kaos]

Love the explanation, but Kharn is nowhere near 100 strength mark, and even if he is running kill shot it should not be as amazingly effective vs a Bash tactic, do you really think I would attempt to tank vs a Rage?

Crippling Might? Can't be the cause to increase damage that much since it is a passive skill working at all times. Heck Rampage doubled with Crippling Might only caused 500 damage.

To put this perspective in how much a Rage is gaining from Last Stand in some unmentioned reasoning, Moon Child who Caine fought has 147 Strength and is hitting with 400+ 2handed weapon and can only manage sub 200 point hits after taking some damage even with Combat Instincts skill. At best he lands 300 damage hits to leather wearing opponents sometimes a little more.

He's 147 strength...not a chump by any means. Kharn you ask....he's 60 under that...and dished out remarkable damage.

And Last Stand should not be capable of increasing Strength or damage above what the gladiator started with..in fact it kicks in when the Rage is closer to dead then alive...so really he should still be weaker then the start of the match, unless it's giving off a +200% effect. And even if it did, by no means should it be capable of increasing damage beyond his starting point..it's just not in the skill.

And so we again loop around to stacked skills of Brute Force, Last Stand, Overwhelming Presence, Crippling Might which work passively on top of an activated Rampage, Sunder and Shock and Awe...and if the opponent happens to be under 1/3 health tack on another passive stacker of Blood Drunk. I leave out weapon skill since it would makes sense to be neutralized by the opponents weapon skill. That is 4 and up to 5 passive skills stacking at the same time with a 5th or 6th tacking on when an active skill activates.

Did I mention the initiative bonus Rage receives?

I know...Solstice has been #1 forever...blah blah blah...Theatrics are ranked high and Rage's have a high rank of 4 followed up by a 13 spot. Not the point......point is stacking skills that much is just sillyness.

Again..big picture here, not a Team Kaos vs the world scenario....

[CaineDeSoulis]

Firstly in the Moon Child/Caine fight I'm doing that kinda damage with berserk and 10 activity I've only used 1 kill shot in 3 fights since upgrading him.

Secondly raise ANY weapon skill with moon child and you'll start seeing better hits.

Battle Hardened,Create distance,Heavy Armour,Athleticism,Grim determination,War cry,Hamstring,Battle Prowess and Combat instincts. All of these things either limit your opponent, make your gladiator tougher to damage or harder to kill. Last Stand is an activated ability not passive.

so skills that stack in rage Brute Force,Overwhelming Presence and Total Carnage. Conditionally stacked skills Blood Drunk, Devastating power and crippling might, Might and Power are throw away skills for a 2handed rage or anyone not using called shot they do nothing to a healthy taken care of gladiator. Blood drunk is unnecessary for a 2hander.

Rage receives a bonus to initiative because they are offensive gladiators and only wear light armor War Cry Can negate *some* of that Armour movement can nagate *some* of that. even with both of those to 10 you shouldn't be faster than a decently built rage.

Prey (rage) fought beta (war) today and threw 42 shots 14 connected for damage and 1 for status effect. 17 were blocked by armour 5 were blocked by create distance 4 of the attacks were *blocked* and 2 missed according to the fight log. and your seriously going to bust rage gladiators balls because you got hit with a massive shot (lucky). In the bigger picture here rage looks to be the MOST balanced type.

Did I mention Crippling might Doesn't add damage it just has a *chance* to increase an injury. also Caine's been dead for that fight.

[Dainoji]

Don't encourage him Caine, Kaos isn't happy unless he has something to bitch about and holds the top 5 spots...well at least he has one out of the two things he wants! ;)

You are spot on, if Rage was so over powered like Kaos wants to believe they would be crowding the arena ranks and holding all the top spots, which they are not. I find this part the most amusing:


I know...Solstice has been #1 forever...blah blah blah...Theatrics are ranked high and Rage's have a high rank of 4 followed up by a 13 spot. Not the point.

That's like saying "baby, I know you saw me with another women and caught me red handed, but that's not the point...let's ignore the facts and just know...I love you!"

I understand his frustration though, with all the losses his team has been taking in the past month or so it must be pretty stressful at training practice these days.

Hey Kaos, if they are so overpowered fire up your rage team again and prove it, get all 5 of your guys into the top spots.

[Team Kaos]

Battle Hardened,Create distance,Heavy Armour,Athleticism,Grim determination,War cry,Hamstring,Battle Prowess and Combat instincts. All of these things either limit your opponent, make your gladiator tougher to damage or harder to kill. Last Stand is an activated ability not passive.

But none actually stack the same power...Battle Hardened - Increase defensive power
Create Distance - is an activated defensive skill, not passive and working all the time...so we will say a 2x stack when activated for defense.
Heavy armor? well that's not really a skill now is it?
Athleticism -- not stacking much of anything there
Grim determination-- works for a gladiator who is winning, again not stacking another skill
War cry - again not stacking another anti initiative skill
Hamstring - an activated skill that reduces attacks..want to lump it with Hamstring..ok but not really the same
Battle Prowess and Combat instincts..again great for fights when gladiators health is close to one another...but they are not truly stacking any other skills


Prey (rage) fought beta (war) today and threw 42 shots 14 connected for damage and 1 for status effect. 17 were blocked by armour 5 were blocked by create distance 4 of the attacks were *blocked* and 2 missed according to the fight log. and your seriously going to bust rage gladiators balls because you got hit with a massive shot
Prey fights with a small weapon, not a axe or mace or...large 2 handed weapon (damage bonus weapon...do I hear stacking again). He also lunges..which has no chance to produce bashing damage.


Did I mention Crippling might Doesn't add damage it just has a *chance* to increase an injury

Oh, my goof..I said Crippling Might when I meant Total Carnage as another passive stacking offensive damage skill.


Don't encourage him Caine, Kaos isn't happy unless he has something to bitch about and holds the top 5 spots...well at least he has one out of the two things he wants!

Oh, so not true..If you recall I did some of my best bitching when I retained all 5 top spots


You are spot on, if Rage was so over powered like Kaos wants to believe they would be crowding the arena ranks and holding all the top spots, which they are not.

Perhaps because they have such difficulty beating the Theatrics who don't try to act like War's on top of the endlessly beat the snot out of each other. There are after all 9 crunched up between the 9 and 23 spots. Until 1 emerges above the other Rages (Prey)..they all will continue to hold hold themselves back.


Hey Kaos, if they are so overpowered fire up your rage team again and prove it, get all 5 of your guys into the top spots.

I just did..

[CaineDeSoulis]

In Rebuttal, War skills work from synergy much like way rage do. As for direct stacking to increase damage per hit. 1 activated skill increases damage dealt Rampage, 1 skill increase's damage via an increase in offensive power Overwhelming Presence and 1 skill conditionally increases damage Blood Drunk. and i know your thinking well what about brute force.It does not increase damage it lowers defense probably on par with battle hardened so they negate if equal.

Total carnage just increases the *CHANCES* of doing more damage on critical hits. so based on your logic of only directly stacking effects Overwhelming presence and sometimes Blood Drunk will stack. Since blood drunk only applies when your war glads are less than 500hp its almost Negliable and the fact your in heavy armor and it negates Overwhelming Presence.

That being said Ive seen solstice have a hell of a time with the heaviest armor and you yourself have complained about heavy armor's deflects. The Axe is thee most damaging weapon in the pits when a rage gladiator with a setup designed for tankbusting is opening up on a tin can. its more than likely the one specifically designed to do so will.

The War/Rage matchup is 2hander war v 2hander rage the rage wins...ANY other style of war vs. ANY other style of rage WAR will win. sounds pretty balanced to me. Heavy Armor is like a tampon only a vagina needs it. :P

BTW i appreciate the compliment to prey even tho it was used to tell dain thunder lips aint the #1 rage :P

[Team Kaos]

The War/Rage matchup is 2hander war v 2hander rage the rage wins...ANY other style of war vs. ANY other style of rage WAR will win. sounds pretty balanced to me

We all know each style plays a rock paper scissors game with each other. I am also not crying that a Rage is an overwhelming destroyer and ruler of the game as some certain Rage defending managers believe.
Im simply stating that Rage by design has multiple stacking skills that increase damage and power while decreasing opposing defensive power which in result incur mega damage.
I just like to know why Last Stand seems to dramatically increase a Rage speed and damage.

As for the heavy armor...we were discussing how heavy armor has recently begun to absorb and deflect about 50% of the smaller weapons shots as well as lower the GV inflicted by a Theatrics...I am not upset at the result... just annoyed at the sudden change.

And to just toss another nugget out there....amazing when I touch on certain subjects the board comes alive.

[Dainoji]

I am also not crying that a Rage is an overwhelming destroyer and ruler of the game as some certain Rage defending managers believe.

Wow, really? I fear to think what actual crying sounds like! ;)


I just like to know why Last Stand seems to dramatically increase a Rage speed and damage.

For the billionth time, it does neither and I should know after 100s of fights running rage gladiators. As usual, I'll remind you again when you forget.



As for the heavy armor...we were discussing how heavy armor has recently begun to absorb and deflect about 50% of the smaller weapons shots as well as lower the GV inflicted by a Theatrics...I am not upset at the result... just annoyed at the sudden change.

I don't think there has been a change to the block chance, but I've noticed the GV reduction but only against stronger armor, bleeding still racks up pretty high on light. Do you think it is across the board? Because I don't think that is the case.


And to just toss another nugget out there....amazing when I touch on certain subjects the board comes alive.

Controversy always stirs debate, but if you feel better taking credit, go ahead! :)

*SWAK*

[Dainoji]

Hey Kaos, if they are so overpowered fire up your rage team again and prove it, get all 5 of your guys into the top spots.
I just did..

Excellent, and I suspect you'll do very well and not because of built in advantages. You have proven to be one of the most consistent players in the game keeping your winning percentage up there and rapidly adapting to changes. Maybe once you start running rage gladiators you'll see all these perceived advantages/stacking/etc really aren't as bad as you make them out to be. Trust me, I wish they were!

[Apoca1ypse]

Well i wont deny that rage has some skills that are very synergistic, as that's exactly what i decided to take advantage of when making Kharn. I would like to point out however, the massive lack of consistency that they come with. 1 fight you may go and 2 hit someone out of the ring, and other matches i'm lucky to get a shot off. infact, kharns last fight saw him die to sliver in the first 2 swings of the fight.

It needs to be stated that Kharn is 10/10 on weapon skill, 9/10 Brute force and 8/10 on total carnage, which is near the pointy end of what his skills are capable of. he was also set to kill shot for that fight against Lords Fury so if he isnt dealing dumb damage from that setup, something is wrong. Granted, his strength isnt amazing now, but his chi - which is what governs how huge a critical hit is - is hovering close to 130.

as for rage being busted, i doubt that is the case. I dont see a rage gladiator on top and it's not often that more than 2 rage glads are in the top 10. If we could consistently deal 1k hits every fight, rage would soon take over all the top spots and THEN there would be something to complain about.

war has some very synergistic skills too. I've had Hamstring and Create Distance cause me no end of grief. 2H rage doesnt swing often, so to lose 30-40% of my attacks after an opening Hamstring, it makes each swing more vital.... and then having some of my remaining attacks negated entirely by Create Distance is normally game over for me. Now ontop of that, if they are weilding a 2H weapon, the 500 damage hits get served right back at me too.

there is the odd armor defelction, but nothing for me to properly whine about as is doesnt seem to happen too much against 2H rage.

actually, in regards to armor, i get the impression that it works by taking the armor value off the damage that you would take from an attack. therefore if your attack was going to do less damage than the armor value, it comes up ad deflected.

[Prinny]

actually, in regards to armor, i get the impression that it works by taking the armor value off the damage that you would take from an attack. therefore if your attack was going to do less damage than the armor value, it comes up ad deflected.

In that case i wonder why my 2H rage got hsi attack brushed off by another rage's armor while he did Rampage lol

[Apoca1ypse]

it can always be rampage without the critical...

[Prinny]

So ur telling me that some armor with a rating of 20-30 can withstand a hit from a 152 minimum damage wep with rampage completely? sounds weird to me to be honest xD

It does sound logical that it gets calculated with damage done minus the armor but i realy dont see how a rages armor can deflect a strong 2H hit like that

[Dainoji]

You are assuming a hit that gets absorbed by the armor was a direct hit. Maybe you swung your 2H axe and the leather wearing gladiator side stepped and or spun and your hit was a glancing strike and thus was absorbed or blocked. Have to use your imagination people! ;)