[22.01.17] What i see around Trixter

[weaw]

I see, it's a "first (second, third) approach, but not a release". Ok.

In general, the gladiator of 50 lvl which able to do 45/0 in the Black Market is interesting.
Why?
Because a gladiator of 50 will touch some perfect -made gladiators about 55 (five levels and sometimes the years of the practice),
What he will do when he will be upgraded to 55? I know the answer : Without changing a strategy (or changing it chaotically) he will eat everything.

You may think something like "New styles. New behavior..." Not. Every behavior have a counter. Or must to have it. But Trixter's skills/strategies has no counter.

It's a current diagnosis for the Trixters of the high brackets: chaotic behavior and a wins as a result...

Detailed now (And IMHO).
-- Dirty Tricks too ... unconditional.
-- Health/Stamina recovery too high (100+, 20+ it's a real hell. Again, without any condition).

It's enough for first look, i think.

// I'm really afraid to have not chaotic Trixter-build in the BG.

Nothing else.

[Kreegan]

Trixters have very bad offense if they stick to their own tree so they seem to rely purely on exhaustion of the opponent. Currently the issue is that they will probably become one-dimensional like the Shadows who always go for the endurance-draining builds because the offensive ones just don't cut it. Other than that, the Cheating Bastard build is annoyingly efficient vs. everything which can't consistently score high damage and terrible vs. bleeders of all kinds and Power Theatrics.
Dirty Tricks is indeed too powerful for such a low-tier skill. Attack avoidance + up to 2 rounds of Blind is often better than even Create Distance (which is upper tier skill).

[Adoede]

Too soon to tell imho.

As Kreegan pointed out, shadows dominate in lower levels and pit fights too, but they've never been effective in blood gods. Maybe that will change now that tanks are becoming less viable. So far what I see with Trixter is that they are tailor-made to counter the true tanks in the game...but they have inherent weaknesses against speedier builds. Perhaps this will lead to a revival of the speed builds and allow other types of offensive war builds to be competitive.

I guess Nate finally got sick of seeing tanks win everything and suppress all the other build types. He tried endurance drain with Shadows...but the darn things couldn't hit the tanks often enough to drain them. He tried extreme bleeding with Slayers...but they also had a hard time landing the blood bath before falling from exhaustion. These cheating trixters are a bit of a fool-proof way to ensure tanks don't dominate blood gods anymore. Looks like we'll be seeing a lot more variety in builds at the top of blood gods now...

[weaw]

... shadows dominate in lower levels and pit fights too, but they've never been effective in blood gods. We have 4 of Trixters in the BG. They are 52-53, i.e. has no 55-legendaries and looks fine...
The probability to score zero loses in the Pit Fights for Shadow ~50lvl a bit high than zero. Their domination in the Pit Fights exaggerated. The only relatively viable Shadow-build means Exotic weapon. And Exotics means a very small chance to have right weapon's subtype during Pit Fights.
And i can't believe that counter-attacker may have a troubles vs speeders. Because two rounds enough to bury a speeder, using counter-attack. Considering Dirty Tricks for two rounds, which will be triggered just at the start. Perhaps, Rage-dodgers have chance. But i'm not sure.
I think Power Rages have best chance here. Because (it seems) Dirty Tricks triggers only on "empty" attack, the attack without activates. Power Rage has enough offensive activates. And have greatest damage output too...

[weaw]

Currently the issue is that they will probably become one-dimensional like the Shadows who always go for the endurance-draining builds because the offensive ones just don't cut it. I don't see a problem here, globally. Really.
Endurance. Health. The wins via these substats are equal in some sense.
Now we have the choice. It's good. Because pre-Sahdow&Mist state: "No one able to fight using Endurance, except the Tanks." It was annoying. Because it was ugly.

And the Trixter's form as Endurance-oriented fighters is ... ugly too. Regeneration 400+ (i saw it!) of Health and 27+ of Endurance per round lying out of my understanding. It just not fit in the current BG fights, where we are trying to win having few points of Health/Endurance more than opponent...
And, again, it will lead, obviously, to "new" concept. Which is old. "Have one ultimate style/skillset and You will be fine." It's a mirror of the Tanks. Same idea. Same principle:"I will stay! Does not matter!". So, it's annoying so long. :)

I'm disappointed.

Nothing more.

// The problem which Trixters currently have (in my opinion, sure) it's the problem like "Too much useless offensive activates." It will be resolved soon. By something like that:
https://i.imgsafe.org/67deb05c09.png

Allowing to use both Bastard and Net. The Hell.

[Kreegan]

Annoying is the right word here, because the Cheating Bastard build is far from unbeatable. There are opponents who almost always lose against it and opponents who trample it but there isn't much middle ground where the fights get really interesting. It's still slightly below the annoyance level of the Rage dodgers who are a purely RNG build (rolls are on your side - you win, they are against you - you lose) but that's mostly because they have bigger skill selection which allows for somewhat higher flexibility.

[weaw]

Trample. Heh.
"Trample" sounds like a Rage's skill. No?

Thanks for few words here, Kreegan.
Once again, i see that our views on the game are pretty close.

// Sad, but the "Even Numbered Rounds" technique doesn't looks like a Trample. ;) Although the technique allows to branch a strategy. So cool. And so sad now, we will lose it, just because it's not a Trample...

[Adoede]

It's still slightly below the annoyance level of the Rage dodgers who are a purely RNG build (rolls are on your side - you win, they are against you - you lose)

I humbly disagree :) These h'n'r rages take a bit more strategy than people think to run effectively in blood gods...which is why not many of them finish in the top 10 season by season.

As for the trixters, I've been impressed by Lahir - he's beating people I didn't think he would be able to beat. Maybe they can be effective champion builds after all. But remember that these trixters also represent the new batch of super-powered HOL glads - so to me it's no surprise that they're proving to be tough against the older HOL glads.

As far as game dynamics go, I like what the trixters have done in eliminating the ability of total tanks to consistently dominate the end-game. To me, that opens up the competition to a host of other builds that weren't so viable before. And it makes for more interesting War builds - Down and Dirty might be worth trying now after all. As I said before, I think this also means that the speed or pure offensive builds may make a comeback to competitive status in blood gods because they seem to have the best shot against the cheating trixters. Overall, more diverse competition and more variation in how seasons will progress is good for the game imho.

[weaw]

But remember that these trixters also represent the new batch of super-powered HOL glads - so to me it's no surprise that they're proving to be tough against the older HOL glads.
Ok. Have You seen another specialty representation of new-HOL, which will eat almost every existing build? Good new HOL just something about +10 for every stat considering old-HOL.
Again. The Trixters are raw. It's not because their managers are bad (Who am i to measure managers skills?) And not because the Trixters are in the "early access". But because the Trixters' managers had no time to purify their strategy/skills. We will be surprised at what Trixters can do -- i'm sure.


And it makes for more interesting War builds - Down and Dirty might be worth trying now after all. I think, it's too optimistic. War hasn't an appropriate fighting style to be non-defensive. They are half-defensive, at least.
There's no offensive blueprints for War. And i think, it's not because we hasn't enough imagination. It just impossible for high brackets, as it seems.

About efficiency and such.
Try to look at the fights from the "aesthetic" angle. Try to respond not to the question "what the build do?" but the question "how it looks?"
Why? Because we are playing the POW for the content of the fights. Not [only] for the resulting records. You are not?
If You able to accept this position, try to answer what You see as the content of a fight Trixter vs Tank.
In my opinion, the fights Trixter vs Tank are concentrated trash. The trash like the fights Shadow vs Rage-dodger. The trash like Theatrics-speeder vs Tank. Nothing interesting. Just a 20+ rounds of the zero.
(Look at this word:
... interesting... )

It's good that we have anti-Tank "build" now, You absolutely right. But the issue here is that a Tank has no chance against Cheating.
For example, a speeder have chance to defeat Counter-Attacker via critical at the start and so on. And it's fine.
But a Tank will be eaten by Cheater with the probability about 1. And, as it seems, regardless of the Cheater's strategy. Tank? Not. Every War (and not only War) will be eaten. Even impressive ones like Toros. I think.
Because effective and pure offensive War builds are impossible for the BG.

// (and not only War) : You may stop Your defensive-theatrics experiments, for example. It's not even funny.


These h'n'r rages take a bit more strategy than people think to run effectively in blood gods...which is why not many of them finish in the top 10 season by season. These strategies just a tuning. Not a core...

[Kreegan]

I humbly disagree :) These h'n'r rages take a bit more strategy than people think to run effectively in blood gods...which is why not many of them finish in the top 10 season by season. Yeah, that must be the reason why using one and the same strategy against them, with the same fighter, can result in a stupid loss without scoring a hit or an equally stupid win like the dodger has suddenly forgotten how to dodge. ;)


And it makes for more interesting War builds - Down and Dirty might be worth trying now after all.Please, do try it on some of your guys and tell us how it went. ;) Preferably a former tank. Not that I really see how the presence of any of the S&M guys makes this awfully misplaced skill any less useless than it is.
By the way, tanks (meaning typical Wars with shields) have won something like 10-15% of the Blood Gods seasons which is very far from dominating performance.

[Adoede]

Ah, I guess we're talking past each other here. Your point is that the h'n'r fights are based too much on chance. My point was that strategy building for an h'n'r is at least as nuanced as that for a power theatrics. Different conversations. Speaking of which, don't you think counterattacking power theatrics also depend too much on chance with so much emphasis on the Surprise ending skill?

As for the Down and Dirty builds, my point was just that given the cheating trixters total dominance of slow low dps builds (aka wars), there is the possibility that the down 'n dirty builds might have the best shot against them among the war builds. If it turns out they're able to hold their own against trixters, then maybe they have a shot at being contenders one day (not holding my breath). And, as a matter of fact, I do have some DnD war experiments in the works just for the heck of it...

My larger point is just that whether the total tanks actually won the seasons or not, they effectively held down all the speed builds and everything else not a 2H Rage for a loooong time. Many seasons ended with 2-3 tanks in the top five. That resulted in seasons where the tanks suppressed nearly everyone else except for the one or two glads who could consistently beat them. Then those one or two would duke it out throughout the season for the top spot - safely shielded from everyone else in the rankings by a wall of tanks. Cheating trixters ended this trend...which I think benefits all other builds.

[weaw]

Ah, I guess we're talking past each other here. Your point is that the h'n'r fights are based too much on chance. My point was that strategy building for an h'n'r is at least as nuanced as that for a power theatrics. Different conversations. Speaking of which, don't you think counterattacking power theatrics also depend too much on chance with so much emphasis on the Surprise ending skill? The difference here is that counter-attacking rely on opponent's strategy.
So, Power-Theatrics just can't build a strategy to be equal effective against all types of Wars , for example. That's why even Arkal can't have stable results against Toros. Arkal is able to build the strategy against Toros, of course. But he will lose to the rest of BG-Wars then.
But the dodge will works anyway. Regardless of the opponent. Except the cases when this "RNG-collapse" happens.
So, Rage-dodger can't control his "luck". But Power-Theatrics are able to choose which type of opponents he will loose...

[Kreegan]

Ah, I guess we're talking past each other here. Your point is that the h'n'r fights are based too much on chance. My point was that strategy building for an h'n'r is at least as nuanced as that for a power theatrics. Different conversations. Speaking of which, don't you think counterattacking power theatrics also depend too much on chance with so much emphasis on the Surprise ending skill? There is no comparison between these two, the dodgers rely on their dodges MUCH more than the Power Theatrics do on Surprise Ending (the skill isn't even a must for the build, it's just useful). While I agree that the dodgers become better with some added strategy, they're still greatly RNG-dependant.
The single difference between a War with Armoured Fortress and one with Down & Dangerous is that the latter lacks the extra armour bonuses but performs better when knocked down. That's literally it. Nothing stops you from building a semi-offensive War with Armoured Fortress, I have two in Blood Gods, and in the end he will perform much better than his Down and Dangerous comrade. Nate just put that skill in the wrong place, end of story.
As for the "pure tanks" - these Cheating Bastard Trixters are exactly like them - they always win against certain builds and lose to others so depending on what variety of gladiators you have in Blood Gods, they can dominate or be mediocre. In both cases they aren't particularly entertaining, just like the tanks.

[Adoede]

I don't see any more reason to complain about dodgers using their build strengths to evade vs. power theatrics using their counterattack tactics to overwhelm opponents with their extra attacks. Take counterattack away from the power theatrics and they become one of the worst builds in the game. No other build is so dependent on one tactic.

Point being - every style has its strengths and weaknesses and good managers know how to take advantage of a particular glads unique strengths. Adding the trixters has forced wars to become more diverse and even though they also play the endurance game, they do it in a way that's different from when the tanks did it. Trixter tanks are vulnerable to high dps builds and bleeders in a way that the war tanks were not. Thus...the addition of them to the game evens the playing field a bit.

And speaking of particular builds always winning against certain other builds...what do you think of speeders vs. power theatrics? Pretty one-sided if you ask me. Not that I'm complaining about that - I think that sort of tactical nuance is what makes this game good. When someone comes up with a build that dominates nearly everyone else, it's a fun challenge to come up with a build that will counter it...that's pretty much the name of the game here. Blood gods seasons seem to ebb and flow with some builds dominating some seasons while others dominate the next. That is not a sign of over-powered boring builds so much as a sign of good managers who've learned to take advantage of the strengths of their builds. It's up to the rest of us to counter them and keep things interesting.

[Kreegan]

Again, there is a big difference. Counter Attack you need to fine tune, you can't use equally well against all builds (try it against a 2H War for example) and most of all - it's a fighting choice which you set up manually. What do you "configure" on the dodger exactly? The RNG is on the background.

Adding Trixters hasn't forced Wars to be any different, at least not yet, let alone make them pick Down and Dangerous (why would they do that, are they getting knocked down more often now?). Tanks were not that great even before the introduction of the Cheating Bastard build, now this is just even more pronounced.

What I find wrong in you way of thinking is that if the game already has some pretty much "pre-defined" winners in certain match ups, then it can have even more of them simply 'cause there are precedents. That's not what makes the game fun. Fights where either gladiator can win based on skills, strategy and maybe even a little luck make the game fun, not knowing what will happen before the fight even starts.

[Adoede]

There's nothing wrong in my way of thinking - we simply disagree. I respect you are entitled to your opinion on the matter as much as I am to mine. And as the conversation is starting to go in circles, thanks for your always thoughtful input and I've got nothing new to add.

[weaw]

Adoede.
The conversation is circled not because of some "disagree". But because You ignored the answers to the assertions which You said.

You said about Down&Dangerous, got few of objections and ignored them.
You said about the comparison dodge vs counter-attack, got an answers and ignored them.
You said the game gives new features for new builds. Again, You ignored the answer for this.

Course, if You ignored the answers, this dialog is senseless...

[Adoede]

Weaw

Of course the same could be said the other way around...which is why I decided this conversation was no longer worth engaging in.

I could continue on about how every build has to adjust to Wars - even dodgers, so the rebuttal is not valid. Power Theatrics still rely totally on Counterattack to dominate just as much as dodgers do on dodge.
I could continue on about how I didn't say down and dangerous was an amazing skill - just that it is more viable now than before.
I could continue on about how there are no pre-defined winners in a definite sense - only that managers haven't found the proper ways to counter certain builds...like how power theatrics used to get owned by tanks...until they began to finally crack that code.

But it's apparent to me that you have your opinions and aren't hearing my points to mitigate those complaints. So the conversation is no longer fruitful. I'm not ignoring your answers. I just understand your points and disagree and realize we simply have a difference of perspective that isn't going to get resolved with more repetition of our points back and forth.

I've great respect for what Kreegan (and Oedi) have added to this game, which is why I'd rather let this end with a mutually respectful "agree to disagree" - which is what I was trying to do. Don't keep digging for a conflict where there is none.

[oedi]

lately ive been trying get a win against our new friends in blood gods the trixsters, and ive failed miserably. I actually dont think ive won a single match up. but today when i read the match against Mensa I lost all hope for a pure war to ever beat a trixter with cheating bastard.
please read todays fight #5
With 200 or more bleeding for 20 rounds i still lost. I had at the most 270 bleed on Mensa and he still gained hp between rounds.
I have no means of doing enough dpm with a 2h, this is by far the best dpm ive been able to do. I might be able to tweak in a little more with fine tuned gear, but im not sure its that much more to gain.
the nature of the game is that some match ups are poor and others are favorable, but ive never been unable to atleast get a few wins in against the bad match ups.

[weaw]

I saw 400+ health regen per round with Cheating Bastard. So, bleeding doesn't looks like a powerfull method against Cheating. Perhaps, Slayer could do more via Blood Bath.
But in general, only stable and really high damage per round could be helpfull here, in my opinion.

[Kreegan]

but today when i read the match against Mensa I lost all hope for a pure war to ever beat a trixter with cheating bastard. That's not quite true, Toros occasionally comes on top in such fights (see today's match vs. Mensa for example). Tanks with shields are extremely unlikely to beat CB Trixters, two-handers have major problems too, I assume Wars with A&M will have serious difficulties as well but they are next to nonexistent.


I could continue on about how I didn't say down and dangerous was an amazing skill - just that it is more viable now than before.Why? What makes it more viable than before? This skill serves only one purpose, to help the War fight better when knocked down. It makes absolutely no sense to pick it if the knockdowns have not increased considerably because of the Trixters - and they haven't. If your point is that some manager will desperately pick random builds just to try to counter the new opponents, no matter if these builds actually make sense - then I certainly don't get the logic behind it, if there is any.

[Adoede]

400+ regen in a round? That sounds crazy. Though I suppose it's kinda like the reverse version of the Slayer's Blood Bath skill. Blood Bath can do between 250 - 400 bleed in a single hit depending on the opponent's tactics and armor. So 250-400 regen in a round for trixters is believable I guess...

As for the Down and Dangerous skill - I am far from a proponent of the skill myself so I get all the arguments against it. The reason it is more viable now is that wars have to be more capable offensively with Trixters around. From my limited work with the skill, Down and Dangerous gives some offensive boosts in addition to the knockdown resistance. It's still not as useful as Armored Fortresses defensive boost which amounts to more wins in general. But now that trixters are allowing the top tier of blood gods to have more variety of builds, it makes builds like down and dangerous wars more viable...not through any merit of their own but simply because the counter builds to the down and dangerous wars are now being suppressed by the trixters. Anyway, I'm done talking about down and dangerous because I also don't like the skill. I was just using it as an example of a larger point I was making that is now lost in wind.

[weaw]

Perhaps, regeneration rate depends on condition of the Trixter, on round number and so on.
Perhaps, regeneration rate is shared between Health and Endurance and a Cheater regenerate more Health and less Endurance if he need it. And vise versa.

Down and Dangerous.
D&D choice means losing Armoured Fortress. But Rages, speed-Theatrics and other initiative-oriented fighters are still here...
So, even if D&D is fine vs Trixters (this is questionable for me), a War with D&D may have no chance to move into BG-top in order to meet these Trixters...

We have Trixters in the BG-top, yes. But there is still no change of the BG-environment, in general...

// And i found the screenshot:
// 1198-847+59=410.
https://i.imgsafe.org/40e8859b7c.png

[Kreegan]

The reason it is more viable now is that wars have to be more capable offensively with Trixters around. From my limited work with the skill, Down and Dangerous gives some offensive boosts in addition to the knockdown resistance.It doesn't give any offensive boost, nor it protects against knockdows (why would it, the point of the skill is to keep the gladiator's performance decent when he's on the ground). Even if it did, it still requires a knockdown to activate which is not something under your control. And it would be very strange to have offensive bonuses while at the same time the skill "helps to seize the opportunity and stand up more easily", effectively cancelling such bonuses. You wouldn't train a gladiator with that skill, would you? If not, let's just drop this, it's pointless.

[weaw]

Perhaps, War tree could be supplemented by a skill which drop both of gladiators down.
But anyway it would be boring, without activates...

[Adoede]

Looks like Nate heard your cries - if I'm not mistaken the trixters "dirty tricks" used to last 2 rounds right? - Now it only lasts the same round. Nerfed!

[Lordsofthepit]

Looks like Nate heard your cries - if I'm not mistaken the trixters "dirty tricks" used to last 2 rounds right? - Now it only lasts the same round. Nerfed!

Looks like cheating bastard took a hit too, not seeing 500+ a round now when low life closer to 300 max now.

All this right after i geared out Lahir in 55 gear too.

[Dainoji]

I'm still seeing 2 round Dirty Tricks and Trixters gaining more than 500 at the start of rounds.

[Adoede]

I'm still seeing 2 round Dirty Tricks and Trixters gaining more than 500 at the start of rounds.

Have you checked out Toros vs. Lahir twice today? Dirty tricks only lasts til the end of the round it triggers. And with ~295 bleed Lahir doesn't seem to be gaining any health towards the end of the fights.

[Lordsofthepit]

yup on the fights that just ran Dirty Tricks is only lasting 1 round. Heal amount for cheating bastard was under 200 points on the round before Lahir went down to:

MURAKAMI moves with unbridled energy.
MURAKAMI attacks like a cyclone.
MURAKAMI makes a vicious attack! (-Eviscerate-)
MURAKAMI's ANCIENT SWORD OF THE BLOOD GODS tastes victory and inflicts towering wounds on LAHIR's hand! (+1140 Damage)

Have 1 handed eviscerates always hit for that much on a non-injury? Don't think i've seen that maybe they got a buff.

3 Straight losses for Lahir since the changes after spending a good amount of money to upgrade his gear, feels like a total waste of cash now. Wont be doing that again.

[Adoede]

We all know how that feels lol

If the trixters have been tweaked, it wouldn't be surprising that Nate also tweaked the other builds a bit - shadows and slayers still haven't proven to be true contenders so I suppose they're due for a boost.

[Dainoji]

Have you checked out Toros vs. Lahir twice today? Dirty tricks only lasts til the end of the round it triggers. And with ~295 bleed Lahir doesn't seem to be gaining any health towards the end of the fights.

Yeah I saw the fight. I also saw a number of fights where dirty tricks lasts 2 rounds. Dig around in the results or go run some gauntlets and conquests and you'll see them too. Sometimes it goes off at the end of a round and shows as 1 round remaining in the next round. If it were only a one round duration it wouldn't show up in the next round at all. In fight 1 Toros vs Lahir he's gaining over 400 health per round, if he used to gain more than that then perhaps when he re-geared he inadvertently lowered his health or intellect and presence which are the attributes for cheating bastard.

[Kreegan]

Well, if this is so, maybe people will now notice that there is another top-tier skill in the Trixter tree or, god forbid, will try to hybridize their gladiator.

[weaw]

Good news.
If it so, Dirty Tricks now similar to other skills of the second tier. Still better than many of them. Real durability is 0-1 now (or still 0-2, as Dainoji pointed out, but with greater reliance on stat/RNG/strategy). Will still be great against speeder. Ok.
Cheating doesn't looks like the core anymore, no longer allowing a random skill/strategy selection. Ok.
In general , Trixter looks interesting for testing now.

// By the way, Dainoji was right, today Fight #5. Kourel scored Dirty Tricks for 2 rounds just at the start.

[Adoede]

It looks like Dirty Tricks can trigger blinding for either 1 or 2 rounds then.

[Aphexii]

is "Dirty Tricks" again buffed? 4 fights vs different trixster and each time 2 rounds Blind.... 2 rounds are a bit OP

[Ghkg]

Looks like it can last either 1 or 2 rounds. I just looked fight in blood gods where same trixter used dirty tricks 11 times, 7 lasted 2 rounds and 4 lasted 1 round. Though since it seems that it can trigger every third round imo 2 round blinds are very op.