Playing via Endurance win using Shadow's skills

[weaw]

Hey.

I know, some of us are trying to do it.
I'm just started this thread. But i have not enough time right now to formalize what i have as an experimental data.

Don't You wish to share something we have?

Kreegan, perhaps, You as an oldest?

// I'll add my opinion. But a bit later. Sorry.

[Aphexii]

Okay at that point we have a hand full of shadows in BG's all from different stables. That should be enough different opinions (after the shadow buff, with new HoL shadows) to revive this thread.

I start with my impression: It is right now the most successful variant of a shadow.

#1. Spectral Touch

very good skill, drains about 30% energy and sets the fight to a 11 round timer. Under perfect circumstances round 1, round 6 and round 11, if all three hit there target. Most of the time 2 are enough to drop the opponent. Fast builds will drop after 2, slow builds and trixsters may need 3 to get exhausted. (in conjunction with Entangle and/or Chilling Presence)

#2. Entangle

The best out of the three draining skills in my opinion. It is a huge debuff for the opponent and increases energy used by a significant amount. My guess is a % based increase at each "action".
Additional energy will be drained at the beginning of each round if the opponent fails to break free. Seems its treated just like a additional "action".

In a fight vs Arkal he lost ,each time something happened, 4 energy. After the Entangle he started to lose exactly 13 energy each time, without any strategy change!! in the fight.
Vs Mad Queen, first 2 energy and after Entangle 3 energy, again without strategy changes from her.
Vs Toros, first 7 energy and after Entangle 6 energy. That one is wierd, maybe the armor affects the debuff, again without strategy changes.

#3. Chilling Aura

A good passiv drain, drains mostly small amounts of energy but over the howl fight! Really good vs tanky wars or fast classes that can't hit you. This skill alone drops tanks without any need of Spectral Touch or Entangle if they can't manage to hit you. I guess its effect is increased vs heavy armor users, but no real evidance.


Im sure Kreegan, Weaw and the Eastwind/Eastgate guy (sorry dont know your forum name) have better information based on experimental data and that kind of analytic information. Hope you guys gathered enough data and are willing to share it soon :)

[Kreegan]

I'm not sure why you're asking me, I'm not a fan of builds which win by waiting for the opponent to drop from exhaustion.

[weaw]

... I'm not a fan of builds which win by waiting for the opponent to drop from exhaustion.
In my opinion, these Shadows don't "wait", but have active actions and "actions" to drop an opponent. Unlike other builds which are aims to Endurance.
But in fact i can't say i like these Shadows. Because of too inflexible behavior.
We are asking You because You have an experience in Shadow building. And You have some analytic abilities, as it seems.

I do not know how to complete Your text, Aphex. Because i still cannot understand well the Endurance consumption mechanic.
The only words i can say, is the words about Entangle: This skill looks like a good defensive option. Regardless of the build where it using.

[Aphexii]

As it seems the majority don't like the pure exhaust shadow, but every new Shadow in BG has Spectral Touch and Entangle. Even if the goal isn't exhaust most fights end in exactly that.
I did some scouting reports of all shadows and to my joy :) all are different, which is a really good opportunity to reach into a wide range of experience.

I tought some of you could give us (me :) ) a detailed analysis of Entangle and maybe Chilling Aura. Stil a rookie and lack the ability to analyze skills properly, compared to you guys.
Im trying to figure out what does affect the Entangle status. (Armor, activity, Agi, different other skills like Unnatural agility, aiming at legs or torso)

Spectral Touch is obvious and even without any goals will drop every glad after 2-3 hits. It is no that hard to last over 10 rounds in a fight, but to generate enough damage before exhausting the opponent is sometimes really hard.
Same with Entangle, if you last about 10 rounds without enough damage you "risk" to win via exhaust.

Winning by exhausting the opponent is viable and sometimes unavoidable even without aiming at that goal, i would say.

[weaw]

I think, Chilling Aura is the simple mechanism: It's just a coefficient for every Endurance piece spended by opponent.
But, again, the mechanics of these spendings too complex for me today.
There is a [relatively] simple part: You spend a bit of Endurance when You trying to do a hit. How much? It depends on activity, bloodlust, weapon weight, fighting style and (it's not so simpe) on the opponent's fighting style. Perhaps, it depends on encumbrance too.
The consumption of Endurance is also the higher the higher the gladiator's "fatigue".
// So, Spectral Touch (for example) is not so ... straightforward as it seems: it cause an opponent to switch strategy or to spend more...

But when You catch a hit, You'll spend Endurance too. How much? I don't know, completely -- It's the hard part of this problem for me...
While this part could give the answers for some questions about Shadow and not only.
This part much more interesting while we are trying to do an "endurance damage"...

[Kreegan]

There's little to discuss, the endurance-draining skills are obvious. Entangle + Chilling Aura alone will drop any opponent in several rounds, add Spectral Touch and the fight may end before it starts. Frankly I dislike this "tactics" even more than what the now extinct tanks used to do - at least they needed to survive for 10+ rounds to drop the opponent, now you have endurance wins for 2-3 rounds just because.

[Tyrst]

As it seems the majority don't like the pure exhaust shadow, but every new Shadow in BG has Spectral Touch and Entangle. Even if the goal isn't exhaust most fights end in exactly that.
I did some scouting reports of all shadows and to my joy :) all are different, which is a really good opportunity to reach into a wide range of experience.

Not all new Shadows in BG are endurance drain/entangle builds. :cool: (see Hongi Hika)

I originally built him with the intention of going with an edurance drain/entangle build, but I guess I'm like Kreegan in the sense that I don't like the tactic so I switched him to a speed/power build. He has done quite well so far, it's a bit of a fast fight, high risk/high reward build with most matches averaging 3 rounds or less . Against top Shadow glads that are endurance drain builds like Sarlesh we would split wins relatively evenly (maybe a little closer to 55-60% in his favor) while in Primus. I have not had any matches against him in BG yet though.

As for other skills affecting the success rate of entagle it has been my experience that unnatural agility most affects a gladiators ability to avoid entanglement or escape more quickly, while intellect and presence most significantly affected entanglement of an opponent. (I've used entangle on other builds)

Really though, my dislike of the endurance drain/entangle builds stemmed more from my dislike of the Shadow class being so fragile (light armor), along with the Shadow Dance fight strategy not working well. Now that Shadow Dance seems to be fixed, I have thought of doing another Shadow glad with the endurance drain/entangle build. (I'm keen to try every build out there)

That said, I'm probably more a rookie than you Aphexii, but that's my analysis and my two cents worth.

[Kreegan]

Sarlesh is not an endurance-draining build. Spectral Touch has an auxiliary role for him.

[Aphexii]

Seems no one :) is trying a pure drain build. I wanted a defensive shadow and the energy drain win is more of a sideeffect (quit large sideeffect), like Sarlesh i use Entangle for a better defense and Spectral Touch to "slow down" the opponent (low endurance = less efficiency overall) and for premature strategy changes. (works great vs trixsters)


while intellect and presence most significantly affected entanglement of an opponent never had the opportunity to add higher int, but presence helped a lot with overall performence.

It seems the A&A school has a natural weakness to draining builds and S&M school a natural weakness vs highly aggressive builds. Thats why it doesn't really matter if the shadow is able to drain his opponent in 4 rounds, same is true for dodge/2h rages which drop pretty consistent every shadow in 3-4 rounds. (I remeber a time where Toros was a sure win for Fatalii, but after he got a bit more aggressive Fatalii got pummeled with ease)

I guess the builds in between have a harder time to adapt, like counter builds or 2h wars, eather they lose really badly or they win pretty clear.

Thanks for all the replys :) and dont flut the pits with shadows....dont want the meta to have the need to adapt to shadows to quickly ;)

[Just J]

I;m going to build a pure endurance drain shadow so I can drain the life out of any of Tryst's slaves :-D \^,^/

[Tyrst]

I believe you would too Julez...eh ;)