better parry with small shield?

[Aphexii]

Hi guys, im using a defensiv theatric with an axe and shield with mainly parry bash (only counter attackiert for defensiv wars) and she does a great job despite her average stats and armor. Barbrastreisand is her name, trug race. Most of the time she used a big shield because i thought more def is better, but i tested the small buckler some days ago and got somewhat better results. Surprise ending triggered unusually often in many fights with just one round cooldown resulting in 2-3 triggers in a 8 round fight.
So my question is does the buckler (small shield) a better job at parrying than his bigger versions? They must have some purpose other than be lighter or faster. Maybe defensiv theatrics are better with fast shields seeing that agi is the main attribute. I read all shield related posts and defensiv posts and find no Information about small shields vs big shields in regards to parry Performance.

Maybe im blind and there is allready a thread for that matter.

Im happy and glad for every answer.

[Adoede]

Interesting thread - I don't think anyone has really analyzed which shields are more effective. If the small buckler gives more frequent surprise ending, then it may be better. I want to say that bucklers tend to be more effective against speedy and light weapons because they can parry more attacks. But against heavier weapons the greater damage absorbing ability of the Wall-shield seems more effective.

Either way, I voted for no shields because in blood gods you've got to be able to defeat the elite tanks in the game or you will never rise higher than 2nd tier. If using a shield reduces your offensive prowess against the tanks, you won't be able to break into the top. I've yet to see a defensive theatrics defeat an elite tank consistently...or even occasionally...or even once in the last six months. Maybe I'll try it out someday...might be possible with the right gear and ranks.

[Kreegan]

Bucklers are underused so it's hard to tell how well they really perform. In the pre-Blood Gods part of the game the gladiators with Bucklers seem to be performing so-so, while in Blood Gods all defensive Wars are about armour deflections + massive Block rank, shields are used mostly to reduce damage, not so much for parries (not that anyone would object against an occasional successful parry) - hence why big shields are preferred.

[oedi]

I have a defensive theatrics in blood gods called Lesser Evil, after an extensive trial period im currently using a Wall shield but im not absolutly sure its best. I know i finally got the strats right as shes running great records in the pit fights so now its time to get the right set of equipment.

Either way, I voted for no shields because in blood gods you've got to be able to defeat the elite tanks
Lesser Evil is constanly beating the best tanks in the pit fights, she basically just need more endurance to be able to beat them in blood gods also.

example of pit fight vs 1122
http://i68.tinypic.com/16q73l.jpg

[Adoede]

I've guys who also do well against the elite tanks in the pit fights...but those pit fights don't take into consideration the 750+ block ranks of the real blood gods tanks. In a real blood gods fight, I can hardly get in a hit.

I wish there was a version of fighting pits where you could match up against fully outfitted glads for practice. Maybe something like a Training pit where you can spar with your stablemates or people on your friends list?

[Aphexii]

Wow thanks for the input guys :D I think now I need a long testing period, hopefully soon some bloodgods results. And some observation of lesser evil. If the testing ends with positiv results I will post it, if someone wants it xD

[Kreegan]

Yeah, the Pits aren't showing how a gladiator will behave in Blood Gods at all. Equipment is random and in all cases vastly inferior to what a fighter will have in Blood Gods. Bleeders suck vs. high tier tanks and it's been like that ever since Nate buffed the heavy armour to reduce bleeding significantly when used defensively. Endurance win is pretty much impossible too.

[weaw]

are fast shields better for defensiv theatrics?
In my opinion:
1. Parry depends on Defense. It seems, it's true. Wall gives high Defense buff, Kite -- average, Buckler -- low.
2. Pure defensive Theatrics strategy have a good chance only vs few of the builds. Perhaps, it's just one "build" : Speed Theatric. So, we need consider shield as offensive weapon. From time to time. Buckler is very bad offensive weapon: no damage, no bleeding, no crits.

Kite and Wall variants are usable, i think. The choice depends on Offense/Defense balance which we like to have. The main weapon also effect this choice.

[weaw]

By the way. No one knows why Defense buff from a shield is not described on equipment page?

I think, it's not a bug. So, if i'm not mistaken, it means, every shield has Defense "potential", but not a direct buff...

[weaw]

My first thought here: We have few of the skills in the different trees which lower opponents Defense. Rage, Shadow trees.
But also (it's just intuitive) perhaps, we have other factors to lower abilities of a shield-user.

// Sorry for multi-posting. Just trying to think, it's not an easy process. :)

[weaw]

Keeping multi-posting. Again. %)


I've guys who also do well against the elite tanks in the pit fights...but those pit fights don't take into consideration the 750+ block ranks of the real blood gods tanks.

Yeah, the Pits aren't showing how a gladiator will behave in Blood Gods at all. Equipment is random and in all cases vastly inferior to what a fighter will have in Blood Gods.
It's not a question of block, as it seems for me. But the question of random. And even more. A shield is very specific weapon. I don't know how much a tank needs Defense stat (it's the main stat of a shield, i hope there's no discussions about it).
For example, Lady Devious works with a strange shield, which is orange, but also it's "old" shield... It has less Defense than a violet "Blood Gods" shield of 55...
And You are know: Lady Devious works fine. It's oedi's work, but not a question of some luck or something like that.

But then let's consider the grey shields. The difference of this Defense stat ... This difference in hundreds!
So, i think, even if top-tank gets "right" shield type in the Pits, it's not a "right" shield anyway.

[Aphexii]

does defense behave like " block" or "armor penetration " with a 1000 points maximum or is it limitless some sort of exponential thing ? Like at 200 defense you get 30% added parry chance, but with 400 defense you get just 45% parry chance and so on until the unreachable 100% parry chance ? Im quite sure its the last one :(

Or its just a stat/speciality thing. Buckler for Agi builds, Wallshield for tanking slow meatmountains (Like cant move...sooo i just put that huge obstacle in his way) xD and kite shields for some crazy hybrid builds?
Some sort of Agi for "activ" and Str for "passiv" parrying.

Thats why bucklers are good or should be better against onehanded weapons... they cant dance arround you so easly because you are as fast as they are. The same for big shields vs weapons.

Im excluding all skills because i want a basic rule not specific situations with those defense ignoring skills :(

[weaw]

Thats why bucklers are good or should be better against onehanded weapons... they cant dance arround you so easly because you are as fast as they are. The same for big shields vs weapons. I suspect, You may have a wrong interpretation of the results...
Fast weapons can be parried with any type of shield. Because it fast, light and has low penetration power. In fact, it's possible to parry it without any shield.
And it's almost impossible to parry 2H Rages attacks. Even tanks can't parry these bombs. Tank may win via strategy, but can't just eat this damage. Regardless of the shield type...

A Wall shield can be an obstacle, and not only for opponent. :) Too high weight and too low speed. It may prevent Theatrics win, no doubts! But it does not mean a worse parrying with it ...

Sad, but there's many of useless things in the game. Useless skills, useless fighting styles, useless armor and so on.
It seems, Buckler almost useless shield. Not because of Nate's plan. But as a result of evolution of the game.

[Aphexii]

After almost 2 years and 4 different shield builds I have some new theories. It all depends on distance! Long-,Mid- and Short range (for simplicity sake)

I think we all agree that distance is a major factor in fights. Glads with long weapons tend to attack first (excluding initiativ) and reduce the frequency of short weapon attacks.
Shields should work similar in regards of defensive capabilities, strong at distance and weaker the closer the opponent comes. The crucial thing is the recovery from close distance fights as a shield user.

Example 1: We are using a mid range weapon and a wallshield and our opponent uses a short range weapon. We are able to defend very well vs his attacks at long range, but with every successful attack he gets closer until we are in short range. At that point we defend poorly and have a hard time to get back to mid-long range. (if opponent can successfully hit us)

Example 2: We are using a short range weapon and a buckler and our opponent uses a long range weapon. We are not able to defend well vs his attacks at long range, we try to close distance with every successful parry/block. But every succssesful attack from our opponent brings us back to long range, we have a hard time to get to mid-short range. (if opponent can successfully hit us)

Example 3: We are using a long range weapon and a wallshield and our opponent uses a long range weapon. We are able to defend well vs his attacks at long range and stay for the most part at long range. The fight is even.

Example 4: We are using a short range weapon and a buckler and our opponent uses a short range weapon. We are able to defend well vs his attacks at short range and stay for the most part at short range. Again even fight.

Example 5: We are using a mid range weapon and a buckler and our opponent uses a long range and a short range weapon. We are not able to defend well vs his initial long range attacks and try to close distance. We have the upper hand in mid range and the opponent trys to change distance. At this point the fight can go back to long range or to short range. If we end up at short range we start to defend well vs his short range attacks. This fight can go either way depending on who can maintain his distance for a longer time.

With mixed weapons/shields it all depends on who is better at keeping his distance. All examples dont take skills or speciffic startegies into account.

Wallshield:
good at mid-long distance defence
good vs inactive opponents or 1-2 attacks a turn
good at absorbing the first 3 hits
bad at short distance defence
bad at recovering from short distance

Buckler:
good at short-mid distance defence
good vs active opponents
good at recovering from short distance
bad at long distance defence
bad at absorbing the first 3 hits

I got the idea after reading thru the fight logs and noticing that after 2-3 successful hits my glad used 1 hand more than the other. Usually he uses his saber first and rarely uses the buckler to attack, but after he takes some hits from mid-short range weapons (the fight changes to short range) he starts to prefer the buckler for attacks until the fight shifts back to mid range. He has terrible defence vs long range opponents, but is able to close distance to mid range and take advantage of that for the given time. He is able to recover from short range with some buckler attacks. The speed of the buckler is good at recovering from short range back to mid range. ( I belief that every shield attack "pushes" the opponent back until you reach your preferred distance, like a dagger/buckler user will keep the opponent always at short range. A trident/buckler user will try to "push" the opponent back with his buckler to mid range and from there to long range with his trident.)

Ever wonder why the wallshield is preferred by war glads? because they are for the most part good at keeping the distance at long range. "Create Distance" and a wallshield synergize very well. The wallshield works well at long range and has good damage absorbtion which is the preferred strategy for a defensive war. ( Im only assuming this )

Theatrics dont have any skill to change distance, but they have the only 1handed long range weapon available. Thats why the most popular choice for defensive theatrics is the trident and wallshield combo.


I tryed many combinations of weapons and shields. The best combinations so far are "trident/wallshield" , "saber/buckler" , "rapier/buckler" , "rapier/kiteshield" , "broadsword/kiteshield" , "broadsword/wallshield". Those combinations are good at performing well at the same distance or being good at taking advantage of different distances and recovering fast enough from wrong distances.
Saber/buckler are good at recovering from close range fights and taking advantage of mid range. Trident/wallshield are very good at initial defence and vs inactive opponents.
Didnt test kiteshields as much as the other two, but it seems its better suited for mid range.


The other theory is about the different defence values of shields, those def stats that doesnt appear in your equipment window. A lvl 55 wallshield has 566 def and a lvl 55 buckler only 141 def. On first glance wallshields apear way better and they are...at the beginning of a fight.
I think after every successful hit some % of the def value is reduced until it reaches zero. At the beginning of a fight the wallshield has clearly more def, but after the first hit the def is reduced by lets say 30%. The buckler has now roughly 100 def left, the wallshield roughly 400 def. After 4 hits both shields have zero def. Maybe the def value regenerates after a parry/block or after a shield attack.
If that is true than the buckler could maintain his 141 def more consitant by attacking faster, but be limited to only 141def. While the wallshield should have a hard time regenerating def by attacking, but the initial def bonus makes up for it.

[The Myst]

This is a nice thread..

I often wondered why to use buckler if wall-shield has a mountain of defence. Now I feel speed, distance, defence-reduction, fighting style etc might be playing important roles for sure.

My little experience says buckler works great for theatric while wall-shield for war. My theatric's buckler parried more attacks than a wall-shield did, even while letting the theatric attack often with main hand weapon which was usually a saber, and thus worked like a charm. But on a war the buckler, despite parrying effectively, made many attacks making the war pathetic in offence while a wall-shield let attack reasonably often with main hand weapon which was usually a bastard sword.

Sorry for my inexperience but a weird guess - can gladiator's class (theatric/war) itself be a variable in shield-effectiveness?

[weaw]

Hey, Aphexii.

The first of theories is interesting, but weak, because it gives too many chances for critics.
And the first of arguments must be addressed not even to You, but to Kreegan (Because it's exactly Kreegan's theory about range/length etc): "Ok, if we have some value like "length of weapon" why it's not described in the weapon's properties?"
The simplest answer: "Because the weapon haven't that property."
It's absolutely true we may see some effects of a weapon, which can be associated with its "length". But nothing more...
That "length" may be a combination of the other properties, which are described directly (Like Weight, Speed).
So, perhaps, the length/range are a ... just theoretical variables, it can be used sometimes to explain some views, but it can't be used directly in the Nate's code.
// You know, the quantum theory of the last century is a great step for humans. And there are some properties of the quarks like "flavour" or "color". But that doesn't means You can smell or view it... Just a names for the properties.


Now, You see, there must be a balance between ours theories and the code, which descirebes in-game mechanic.
And theory of "exponential lose the "power" of a Shield" is too deep to be true.
I think, a Shield just an off-handed weapon. With small of the code about...

Hey, Myst.

... can gladiator's class (theatric/war) itself be a variable in shield-effectiveness? Easily. There are a lots of the ... moments in the game, which can be explained by code like "if pc.class=="WAR" then 1 else 2" . It's not a weird guess. Sure. But, for the justice, these moments can be explained also by composition of the gladiator's skills.
// The real weird guess is something like "We are cats and we have 9 lives!" IMHO. ;)