Defensive Theatrics.

[Kuljem]

Hoy people.

I would like your opinion on defensive Theatrics.
Are they any good? Can they survive in competitive ranks? By that I mean on Top Primus and Blood Gods. :)
I would like my first HoL glad to be one.

Thanks for your time.

[weaw]

For now i see no successful theatrics with a shield in the Primus or Blood Gods brackets. If You mean a shield as a "defense".
But (and IMO) every theatrics is defensive.
I have the HOL gladiator in the Primus (Deirdre Sorrow). She's ranked something about 10 now.
And she doing well even (sometimes) against Lethal Formula's gladiators (His gladiators are pretty good, uses good strategies and has a nice gear).
She's armed with two whips and uses the strategy of "bad conditions": Signature Moves, Gratuitous Violence, Entangle.
And she spends something like a half of the time in a defensive and half of the time in an offensive stances...
Also, i have see another gladiator, Erin Gobraugh in the TOP of Primus brackets. She doing something like that too. And, perhaps, more successfully. And there is a few Blood Gods gladiators which trying to build strategies like this.
Also, i guess, it's possible to make a "more" defensive theatrics using a net and (for example) trident.

// But be aware, non-speed theatrics are really complex to build...

[oedi]

yes they are good I just dont now how to make them good yet. My glad lesser evil is at the very bottom of Blood gods :p

[Kuljem]

Hey guys, thanks for taking time to reply.

Yes, I mean on being spite with shield, medium armory and mostly play parry, counter.. I realize they are complex to run, but they are so rare and different, which I always like. I am always about being on the other side. :)
Oedi, you already have something I am aiming for, even tho I would probably use bigger shield and medium torso for better defense, you are the experienced one and know whole lot more about top plays then I do. :D

Wanna slip in some tips? :P

[weaw]

Sad, but it seems the only build that will lose to "defensive theatrics" is speed-theatrics now...
But since You like to try it, good luck to You. :)

[FrosteeFyre]

Hahaha, as weaw says, defensive theatrics is really good against speed builds- and I just so happen to be running a lot of speed builds, and defensive theatrics screw my glads over, a lot XD

[weaw]

... defensive theatrics is really good against speed builds...A fast Rage might squat and jump like a crazy frog! They are really, really Hard to Hit now.
And they might do a good damage vs defensive gladiators due to their specific skills and fighting styles.
So, i think, right now a defensive theatrics not a problem for them.

So, the only build which will lose is exactly speed-theatrics. And, perhaps, some strange war builds.

[Adoede]

Defensive theatrics can be very dominant...there was a time when Bloody Lady was nigh untouchable by stacking armor with +defense bonus. I think she had something like +290 defense.

But...the game has evolved again and managers have come up with counter-builds. There are now other defensive builds that are superior and thus the defensive theatrics have fallen by the wayside. But, it's just a matter of time before someone creates an iteration of a defensive theatrics that can be dominant once more. Perhaps you will give it a try? Personally, I prefer skill theatrics myself. Complex, sure - but lots of fun to try to work out.

Just so you know, Defensive theatrics that stack +defense don't work anymore because they get outlasted by tanking wars. Given the preponderance of tanking wars in the top levels of blood gods, that turns out to be a fatal weakness. Find a way around that and you've got something good.

[Stormcloak]

I was just thinking about Bloody Lady too!

I think they are viable - it just depends on how you build it, how you equip it, and how you run it.
When builds are described as "defensive" or "offensive" it's a bit misleading. It's kinda like in chess when players ask for aggressive or solid openings - in that case it's not the opening it's how you yourself play it.
In the same respect, this holds true for how you develop your glad - you don't have to feel limited to being a one trick pony.
With the right build and strategy you can have a strong glad that you enjoy. He may not necessarily win the Blood Games, but he should certainly be capable of getting to retirement at the least (if you felt a need to try something else).
Theatrics has a lot of strong skills that offer a lot of utility and flexibility.

[weaw]

I think they are viable - it just depends on how you build it, how you equip it, and how you run it.
The right words, but too general...
What to do with the specific question: How to defeat a War using shield?
The right answer in my opinion is: nohow.

I see only three ways for Theatrics vs War: Bleeding, Knockout and, perhaps, Entangle with a net. Any of these ways excludes a shield usage ...

[Stormcloak]

"How to defeat a War using shield?"

You can dip into the rage tree for a bit more hitting power. If you have feint going once a round, with called shot, dev power, and brute force/blood drunk you have quite a bit of hitting power. It's not purely defensive or purely theatrics, but you can still run crowdpleaser, and use a shield, and other assorted theatrics skills, and switch between parrying, counterattacking, and attacking under different conditions.

[weaw]

You can dip into the rage tree for a bit more hitting power. And then smash a War with DevaSTTating PoWerRRR! Wielding a shield. Nice joke. :)


... other assorted theatrics skills ...
"Skill", but not "skills". 4 Rage skills +weapon+shield+feint+called shot+crowd pleaser -10 = -1.

I think, that build would have a stats like 1/3 even on HOL. :)

[Stormcloak]

Sure - with dipping into the rage tree (I didn't suggest running 4 rage skills), one could run, for example:
Blade/exotic, Shield
Dev Power, Brute Force
Feint, Called Shot
Crowdpleaser, Gratuitous Violence
Armour Movement, Hamstring

You have Armour Movement to help with initiative and absorbing attacks, Crowdpleaser to boost defense especially when using defensive fighting styles, Hamstring to lower your opponents attacks, and GV to get a bit of damage over time in for longer matches. Feint is a decent, frequently activated attack, Brute Force lowers your opponent's defense, and Called Shot and Dev Power combine nicely together to keep hitting the same area with a higher chance to, and the impact of, critical hit. You can run a defensively themed strategy (based around parry and counter-attack) and turn more aggressive when the right opportunities present themselves. Of course, this isn’t a build that will trump every other build, but I would be comfortable running it. If you want to have a glad stronger on one particular aspect, you have to find another that you're willing to compromise on.

[weaw]

Ok.
What exactly You suggested:
DP (Str, Size, Chi)
BF (Str, Size, Chi)
Shield (Str, Sta, Int)
Feint (Int, Agi)
CS (Int, Agi, Prs)
CP (Int, Agi, Prs)
GV (Int, Agi, Prs)
Hamstring (Str, Agi, Prs)
AM (Str, Agi, Size)

For me interest presented in the Primus or above. In these brackets we need to concentrate our stats around skills we used.
So, what the stats we need to stack in that build?
For me it's obvious that this build is not so good. Because we spreads of all stats. But Ok. I can suggest to exchange CP (Int, Agi, Prs) for Strength of the Crowd (SC) (Str, Agi, Prs) and then pick the Maces & Axes skill (Int, Str).
This choice allows to stack Str, then Agi. (And this choice exclude GV from our build :).

And now we can to return the question: "How to defeat a War using shield?"
We have a fight: Our theatrics wielding a mace and shield, an opponent wielding a mace and shield. An Opponent uses heaviest armor and tank stance. What do You expect from this fight?
The right answer is obvious again...

[Kreegan]

You won't drop an equally developed, well-managed tank with A&M if your gladiator is not a Rage. You'll be better off with Exotics and specifically a Falchion or Trident (less deflections, better criticals), bleeding focus, a lot of Stamina and careful endurance management. Aim for a limb which is not likely to be defended and try to force the tank to annoy the crowd so they can help your fighter. Yes, it won't work every time and yes, the tank will still have the upper hand when damage mitigation is considered but with some strategy tweaking you have a chance.

Also, don't try to max all attributes which you have skills for - that won't get you far and it's not needed. For a bleeder, you need mostly Agility and Presence, plus some Chi to ensure adequate criticals. Intellect shouldn't go above 100 - it makes zero difference, trust me, I had a gladiator with 180 Intellect before. Make sure you have enough Stamina to last more than 20 rounds with moderately active setup and distribute the rest as you see fit.

[Adoede]

Intellect shouldn't go above 100 - it makes zero difference, trust me, I had a gladiator with 180 Intellect before.

Not to hijack this thread, but I'm curious what benefits and weaknesses you saw with your glad at 180 int and why you think it is useless.

[Team Kaos]

Having quite a few Theatrics within my stables, a few of them defensive and a couple with very unorthodox builds, it always seems for a defensive that it boils down to whether they can handle the 2H wielding War and it's DFA skill. Unlike the Rage with its Rampage that can do glorious damage, its a bit easier to defend against a Rage. DFA is amazingly difficult to avoid for the defensive Theatric. A Theatric can tire out and bleed a Rage while rope a doping during the match.
The War usually has stamina to spare and doesn't tire as fast and the heavy armor can withstand softer parry attacks reducing blood loss substantially.

Axes and Maces will penetrate the heavy armour a bit better but again a few DFA and its over. This weapon choice also limits the Theatrics against other faster builds defensively. I have seen some success by making an aimed attempt at knocking the 2H weapon from its hands. With a little luck the war either goes weaponless or picks up an unskilled weapon.

As with every build in the game, there is always another that can counter it, but by countering a specific build you open the fighter to be at a disadvantage vs 1 or more other builds.

A defensive Theatric skilled with the following can be highly effective against DFA
Aimed Blow
Sig Move
Crowd Pleaser
Armor Movement
Strngth of Crowd
Hamstring
Surprise Ending and reaching into the Rage tree for Barreling Attack. DFA doesnt seem to trigger much when the war is rolling around on the ground.

Again, its not always wise to build against a specific build, yes you may win the majority of bouts against that specific build but the result is not always the best overall when having to fight all the others builds.

[weaw]

Team Kaos,
I think, the best way to keep a War (and not only) disarmed, proned or blinded is not the Barreling Attack, but a Signature Moves + Whip + Entangle combination.
A whip is the fast weapon. So, it works good for the SM skill. It works itself due the Entangle skill. Also, it helps to stack bleeding due to the number of attacks.
But yes, an off-handed whip makes a Theatrics less defensive in a some sense.

Thanks, Kreegan. Useful ideas and info.

[Stormcloak]

Weaw,
Your glad Dierdre is running dual whips, and Entangle. With the disarms have you (or anyone else) ever pulled off your opponent's shield or offhand item? I've only ever noticed the main weapon impacted with disarms. If you can pull off an opponent's shield that would be a way to take away some of a tank's strength.

[weaw]

I've never seen a removing of off-handed weapon (including shield) through disarming...
For both skills. Entangle and Signature Moves.

But i think the real problem for Theatrics is not a Wars shield. But the tons of endurance and damage absorption/deflection (A shield has some relation to these, but not dominant).
I don't believe that a Theatrics has some chances to defeat a good tank using just a damage. Even if he got 2-4 skills of the Rage part of skill tree. And even if he wields good damaging weapon like falchion or trident. And even if a tank wields an off-handed weapon instead of shield.
I see no more ways here, only bleeding, only knockout (it works very bad on tanks and generally unpredictable), and only some accurate work on stamina (which was described by Kreegan).
For stamina method may help a net. I've already tried to use net and going to try it again (Until i accidentally not fell in the Blood Gods brackets and was not eaten there :).

[Kreegan]

Not to hijack this thread, but I'm curious what benefits and weaknesses you saw with your glad at 180 int and why you think it is useless.None. :) That Einstein still had situation when he would pick the wrong weapon from the ground, still wouldn't always use his skills at the appropriate time (I would expect at least to trigger one of them in the first round 100% of the time) and his overall fighting competency didn't seem to improve noticeably compared to the twice dumber gladiators in my stable.

@weaw, you can also consider Bloody Spectacle - that's extra Attack Power and bleeding.

[weaw]

@weaw, you can also consider Bloody Spectacle - that's extra Attack Power and bleeding. Yes. Thanks for advice. I'll try it again. But not right now. I have a young Theatrics. His size is 94. He has good Str, Prs and Agi too. I think, Bloody Spectacle can be a good "defensive" option for him. But before i'll try to use Death from Above + War Cry and, perhaps, Adrenaline Rush.

[Kuljem]

Lots of interesting posts, thank you all.
I do have few more questions related to topic.

What would be better; gv or harmstring? And would it be ok to have both at lvl 5?

Next, i think feint is a smaller version of dfa, and they both hit harder, even against tanks, am i right?

Also, anybody tried iron jaw with dunder? :)
And what would you suggest iron jaw or grim?
(for defensive theatric ofc)

Thanks all.

[Kreegan]

Most skills aren't incredibly efficient below level 8. If you plan to use Blades or Exotics, you need both Gratuitous Violence and Hamstring at level 10 - there's no reason why you wouldn't pick these skills, they are both very good.

Feint isn't exactly like Death from Above. It works quite well against defense-stacking fighters but isn't very good against armour. Death from Above penetrates defenses quite well too but can also punch through armour nicely if the gladiator is big enough. Feint triggers more often though and possibly has higher Attack Power bonus.

I'd say avoid Iron Jaw on any build, you'll probably be disappointed. :) Grim Determination is a good choice for a defensive gladiator but will eat skill points which you may need if you want to go to the bottom of the Theatrics tree. If you're aiming at a hybrid, it's at least worth trying it.

[Pit Lord]

The right words, but too general...
What to do with the specific question: How to defeat a War using shield?
The right answer in my opinion is: nohow.

I see only three ways for Theatrics vs War: Bleeding, Knockout and, perhaps, Entangle with a net. Any of these ways excludes a shield usage ...

Hi weaw. What is you stable? If you dont like to put on the forums you can pm me. My stable is crowdpleasers. You won't beat the defensive war if you use shield. Simply trow your shield for this fight and try to bleed the defensive war. You will need a lot of stamina to do it.

[Kuljem]

Why does Strenght of the Crowd activates almost always while Surprise Ending rarely?
I use defensive strategy and even boost more chi (for SE) then str (for sotc) and still. Sotc activates in every match, but SE rarely. Sometimes in 2-3 matches in a row, then dissapears for few matches. Sometimes it activates 2 times in same match..

I really don't know how to make it activate more, can anyone make suggestion? Thanks.

[Ogornomus]

SotC activates more reliably because it gives a little bonus. So it has to be reliable. SE activates rarely because it can turn around matches easily. It's strenght is compensated by its unreliable nature. Also it wouldn't be a surprise if it'd proc regularly ;)

Basicly skills have a different chance to prock. SotC goes of reliable even on offensive builds.

[Kreegan]

Surprise Ending could be really devastating, ask all those Rages who got their Rampages back in their faces. You can see it 10 times in 4-5 matches, you can see it once in 10 matches, it depends on the RNG rolls. The skill probably has some fixed minimal chance to trigger on every attach of the opponent + a few extra percent from the attributes where the chance also varies depending on the fighting style (works more often with defensive styles) and there is 1 round of "cooldown". It's not a skill to completely rely on for the performance of your fighter but it can certainly win you some close or nearly impossible fights. And it's hell of a fun to use.

[weaw]

It's not a skill to completely rely on for the performance of your fighter but it can certainly win you some close or nearly impossible fights. And it's hell of a fun to use.
It's not so funny, in my opinion. Theatrics looks ok [,but only] statistically. Having two powerful, but unpredictable skills at 4th tier. So, these skills describes the behavior of pure Theatrics: unpredictable. It's a problem, in my opinion, but not a fun.

[Adoede]

There are a few things that effect surprise ending rates. That said, most of the fun of this game is in figuring out those little details yourself:) so without giving away too much, I will say that there are definitely things you can do to make "Surprise Ending" a more consistent part of your strategy. Running a good defensive strategy certainly helps. Stat distribution also is highly important...though perhaps not the stats you'd expect. Combat effects like "Entangle" that reduce enemy effectiveness also boost surprise ending chances. Your defensive prowess vs. opponent's attack power also factors.

Watch glads who use surprise ending effectively very closely and you should start to see some patterns. If you build it right, you can have a glad who throws surprise ending in every fight and even multiple times in a single fight. I've even seen some Theatrics surprise ending every single attack of their opponent during an entire match...granted their opponents didn't attack much...

[Lunarion199]

Well, interesting thread; I'm no pro but I'd like to chip in with my experiences.

Imo surprise ending is useless against defensive wars although immense fun to see it trigger against other specialities. Knockout may prove effective against defensive non-Urk non-IronJaw wars. Feint may prove useful with slow, high-damage weapons. Game mechanics may change if balancing is required; I'm sure Nate keeps doing his statistical analysis. In the past the Theatrics could easily bleed out a war; also they had a Second Wind skill which refilled stamina. Today it may be difficult for them to face a defensive war but that's the fun.

I wish sotc was here to share his experiences too.

[weaw]

In the past the Theatrics could easily bleed out a war; I'm afraid, this will not happen. We have some sort of specialities triangle in the Arms & Armour school: Rages are good vs Wars, Wars are good vs Theatrics, Theatrics are good vs Rages. There is no reason to break this pattern with own hands. Also, bleeding has some sort of inflation now. Because the Blood Bath skill adds few hundreds of bleeding with just one hit. This could lead to protection from bleeding rather than to increased bleeding.

I think, there is no problem like "Theatric vs War", but there is the problem with Tank fighting style: This style has no vulnerabilities by itself.
There are only four win/lose methods:
1. Drop health to 0;
2. Drop endurance to 0;
3. Fail a dice check at low health;
4. Knockout.
And the Tank style has not a vulnerability to any of these four. While Berserk style , for example, is the method to drop opponent's health by loosing Rage's endurance very fast.