New Update 7/29/2014: New Pit Fight Matchups, New Level Requirments For Skills & More

[Nate]

Greetings Pit Masters!

A minor update has just gone live.

Jimmy's Pit Fights now use a gladiator's skill points in addition to their level for matchups rather than just their level helping to create more competitive matchups more often. This is something I wanted to do from the beginning but it required more under the hood work than I wanted to do at the time.

Each tier of skills has a new level requirement in order to unlock. This helps newer players who are unfamiliar with PoW's style of skill trees as it does differ from many other games where deeper always equals better and has been a large source of confusion for some time now. Gladiators who already have skill points in a skill that would otherwise be locked after the update due to not meeting the level requirement will still retain those skills and use them in combat but will have to wait to continue training them until they meet the new requirement.

The amount of points a gladiator receives when fighting in the arena has been modified slightly to better reflect their performance on the sands. If a gladiator dominates their opponent they will be rewarded with more points than if they just barely won. We already do this to a small extent, the new algorithm fine tunes it.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Avengelyn]

Well i just did the 35 pit fights for today under the new system with my warrior Pile Driver, 35 straight fights against Lady Mary, another HOL warrior 2 levels above me. Went 18-17, which is obviously something i'm not used to seeing now that i have 5 young HOL warriors. So much for my day in the sun after getting smoked in pit fights for the entire career of my first 5 warriors.....

It seems to me that this entire update was put in place to detonate the dominance of warriors using a "skill rich for their level" approach. I can understand you wanting to discourage this style of play, but you've disabled my entire team without warning. EVERY one of my warriors is essentially skill locked, at least till level 30 and perhaps beyond.

Other than the impact this has on myself in particular, i'd caution you strongly on these types of "limited options" ideas. Limited options means limited skill, and this reminds me of when WoW changed their skill trees so that Timmy couldnt make a bad warrior with poor choices. I'm not looking for games that are on rails and "fair for all", i'm looking for games that challenge and allow me to try different things to see if they work or not. Cookie Cutter builds that everyone has are not fun and challenging in the least and this update goes a long way towards that end.

If you really wanted to make things more fair for the newbies, perhaps the entire idea of a HOL warrior should be scrapped. Giving experienced managers far superior warriors that newbies dont have access to is one of the most unbalanced things i've ever seen in any game.

After these past 2 updates my enthusiasm for the game is starting to waver...some good news soon would be appreciated..

Avengelyn, manager of Lethal Formula

[JerimyA5]

The manager of the above mentioned Lady Mary here. Just saw the same thing. All of the underground fights were vs. Pile Driver. I have mixed feelings about this. Truthfully I don't care about the Underground Pit Fights. I don't even waste time with them any more. Too much clicky for no reward worth mentioning, even if you do get 1st. (Well okay, you do get squids, that's not nothing. But we get those regardless placement) However, this does feel very much like a punishment of some sort. And I don't even feel that HoL glads have anything to do with it. I have always leveled my glads, HoL or regular, in the Tavern missions. Avoiding the Arena and exercising great patience to have glads with more skills for their level then the rest of the rabble. Now, I don't see this change effecting anything in the Arena, and therefore I don't care much. But it does still feel like your punishing any smart manager for slow leveling any glad, HoL or not. And I am very much wondering why this would be? The precedent worries me that I'll be penalized in other ways for my play style in the near future.

[Avengelyn]

Unfortunately Jerimy yes it does change arena as well for us, my warriors are flying up the charts now with each win. Primus in my 30's sounds outrageous but it could very well happen to me.

Avengelyn, manager of Lethal Formula

[Nate]

Hey Avengelyn,

Thanks for taking the time to offer your feedback, I appreciate it. I can remember when I was a kid I would spend hours reading the 1st edition D&D books trying to find all the loopholes to make the unbeatable character. My DMs hated me. My best loophole character was a dual class thief/monk. I got x 3 damage for a jump kick and x 2 for a "back stab" I believe. He kicked monsters in the back from dungeon to dungeon leaving a trail of dead bodies and pissed off gamers in his wake. I then created a 1st level Druid with a 25 Wisdom and under 1st edition rules that gave him access to the top spells in the game. All his other stats were around 3-5. He was basically an invalid being pushed around in a wheelchair that could destroy the world if he sneezed by accident. Intelligent and creative players usually find these kinds of loopholes and PoW attracts intelligent and creative people so I am always having to close loopholes when they are discovered to keep the game from degrading into jump kicking back stabbing thief/monks! :)

I think you'll find there is still a lot of options and variety with builds and we are far from running on rails with cookie cutter builds. There will always be some degree of monkey see monkey do going on in any game, however, I still see a lot of room for experimentation generated from skill builds/race/gear layout/strategy combinations. Really the only change is preventing the above scenario which I think we can agree is a good thing. I haven't specifically looked at your gladiators, however, I'm sure they probably have a good number of skills that can be trained while waiting to unlock deeper tiers. I would be surprised if they were skill locked. Keep in mind, this change doesn't prevent any particular skill build, it simply changes the level it can be realized. I recommend doing all your arena fights and tavern contracts each day to maximize XP gain and speed up the leveling process as to unlock the tiers sooner than later.

HoL slaves have been mentioned on a handful of occasions and I decided to track them. Turns out most non-HoL slaves don't fight HoL slaves very often as the HoL slaves are far out numbered. In addition, non-HoL slaves win a good amount of the time and are far from being outclassed. HoL slaves have an edge but it isn't an overwhelming one. A bigger factor is the player controlling the HoL slave has a lot more experience now and that is a much larger contributor to the success of a gladiator.

Nobody likes it when their characters are affected by a change, me included. You have my sympathies as a gamer and at the end of the day I think this change will be a positive for the game. Hopefully you'll enjoy some of the new updates that are on the way.

Thanks again.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Nate]

my warriors are flying up the charts now with each win.

Gladiators will naturally climb and fall as they find their equilibrium in the rankings. Gladiators proving to be far superior to their surrounding will climb, gladiators proving to be far outclassed will fall. If you are seeing your gladiators rise quickly it is because their ranking is far below what their ability is. They will no doubt slow down the higher they climb.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Nate]

no reward worth mentioning, even if you do get 1st.

Actually Pit fight rewards changed awhile ago. I think you'll find 1st place offers some of the best prizes in the game. http://forum.pitofwar.com/images/smilies/smile.png

1st: Epic or Fabled Epic or Legendary or 2500 BGP



But it does still feel like your punishing any smart manager for slow leveling any glad, HoL or not. And I am very much wondering why this would be?

Please see my above reply to Avengelyn and I believe that will answer your question. If you enjoy a slower play style, you can still play that way if you like, nothing is preventing you from doing so. If you enjoy being more passive in the arena and more active in the other areas of the game that is still possible.



The precedent worries me that I'll be penalized in other ways for my play style in the near future.

Try not to think about it as a punishment or a penalty. Games are always being balanced and PoW is no exception. Sometimes those balances are at the game level and sometimes they are at the meta game level. I try to stay as hands off as possible until something reaches a point to where it needs to be addressed for the good of the game. Not everyone will always agree with the changes and I feel bad about that but it is understandable.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Nate]

Well i just did the 35 pit fights for today under the new system with my warrior Pile Driver, 35 straight fights against Lady Mary

If this is happening, it means at this time that gladiator is the only appropriate matchup given your level and number of skill points. For the majority of gladiators this will not happen. For gladiators with a lot more skills points than their level would normally have will see this happen until they start to level up which will expand the pool of available opponents.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Avengelyn]

If this is happening, it means at this time that gladiator is the only appropriate matchup given your level and number of skill points. For the majority of gladiators this will not happen. For gladiators with a lot more skills points than their level would normally have will see this happen until they start to level up which will expand the pool of available opponents.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

Getting matched up against the same warrior every time in the pit fights is going to lead to a collusion problem, and sooner than later. What if, for example, i happened to run North Point as well as Lethal Formula in the scenario where Pile Driver was guaranteed to fight Lady Mary and the reverse? I could easily make it so both went undefeated in the pits doing that correct? Also, if i know for certain Pile Driver is going to draw Lady Mary 100% of the time, i could alter strategies to specifically deal with that one warrior.

These things are just from the hip, i'm sure someone will come up with something more nefarious and soon if that isnt changed.

Avengelyn, manager of Lethal Formula

[FrosteeFyre]

The amount of points a gladiator receives when fighting in the arena has been modified slightly to better reflect their performance on the sands. If a gladiator dominates their opponent they will be rewarded with more points than if they just barely won. We already do this to a small extent, the new algorithm fine tunes it.

This is referring to skill points earned, right? Also, would it not make more sense to reward more points to the very close fights' winners? In real life, the tougher the fight is on your warrior, the more skill they earn, as opposed to say a HoL dominating a 10% w/l abandoned gladiator? Just my thoughts on the matter, it would also promote strong Stables battling each other for risk/reward (in the form of skill points) as opposed to picking on new/abandoned Stables.

[Avengelyn]

Which Blood God Level warrior is going to go 35-0 against other Blood God warriors in order to collect 2500BGP? You booted the sandbaggers, so now the young warriors will win the vast majority of them. Has anyone ever won 2500BGP in the pit fights?

Avengelyn, manager of Lethal Formula

[Avengelyn]

This is referring to skill points earned, right? Also, would it not make more sense to reward more points to the very close fights' winners? In real life, the tougher the fight is on your warrior, the more skill they earn, as opposed to say a HoL dominating a 10% w/l abandoned gladiator? Just my thoughts on the matter, it would also promote strong Stables battling each other for risk/reward (in the form of skill points) as opposed to picking on new/abandoned Stables.

No its not about skill points, rather the amount of rank points you gain from thrashing someone in an arena battle. The reason for the change is make it much harder to sandbag a warrior with Tavern fights to W/L records of 100-0 and beyond. Case in point, Dirt Bath just took his first loss after being rocketed out of the Jugs bracket earlier this morning.

While i do agree with the change being a good one for the game, i'm miffed about the timing none the less.

Avengelyn, manager of Lethal Formula

[Nate]

Getting matched up against the same warrior every time in the pit fights is going to lead to a collusion problem, and sooner than later. What if, for example, i happened to run North Point as well as Lethal Formula in the scenario where Pile Driver was guaranteed to fight Lady Mary and the reverse? I could easily make it so both went undefeated in the pits doing that correct? Also, if i know for certain Pile Driver is going to draw Lady Mary 100% of the time, i could alter strategies to specifically deal with that one warrior.

These things are just from the hip, i'm sure someone will come up with something more nefarious and soon if that isnt changed.

Avengelyn, manager of Lethal Formula

I'm not too worried about this because I believe most players will not do this, and if some players do and it is discovered they will be dealt with. For whatever reason PoW's players and by extension its community have been amazing and we haven't suffered a lot of the toxic behavior many online games do. For that I am always grateful and thankful and it is a testament to the character of our player base. Some gladiators in a small matchup pool right now because they have a lot more skill points than normal for their level will see their pools expand shortly as their level increases and their skill points do not or not too much. Fighting the same gladiator in the pit fights is temporary for those affected most by the change and new gladiators coming up the ranks will be unable to reach the same level:skill point ratio and will not experience this.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[JerimyA5]

If you enjoy a slower play style, you can still play that way if you like, nothing is preventing you from doing so. If you enjoy being more passive in the arena and more active in the other areas of the game that is still possible.

I fail to see how nothing is preventing me from doing so. You yourself have looked at my play style and decided it was unbalancing your game and have now, with this update, prevented me from playing that way. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that you have every right. It's your game and you have to do what you feel is best. I'm not going to whine or complain. But this has ended the way I played the game. And so I bid you adieu. Not mad, but a bit saddened by the loss of a game I loved for years. Best of luck to you all in the pits.

@ Avengelyn, manager of Lethal Formula, I'll reset my stable on the way out to remove Lady Mary from the Black Market. Hope this helps you out a little at least.

[Nate]

I fail to see how nothing is preventing me from doing so. You yourself have looked at my play style and decided it was unbalancing your game and have now, with this update, prevented me from playing that way. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that you have every right. It's your game and you have to do what you feel is best. I'm not going to whine or complain. But this has ended the way I played the game. And so I bid you adieu. Not mad, but a bit saddened by the loss of a game I loved for years. Best of luck to you all in the pits.

@ Avengelyn, manager of Lethal Formula, I'll reset my stable on the way out to remove Lady Mary from the Black Market. Hope this helps you out a little at least.

Thanks for taking the time to write your post, I appreciate it. Let me clarify the statement you've quoted. Those players who were leveling their gladiators slowly by avoiding the arena and only using the tavern and other non-arena areas of the game can still do that the same as before. The day to day activities of logging in doing tavern runs, engaging in the non-arena areas of the game and not using their fight tokens remains exactly the same. Nothing prevents a player from playing the game in that way. The only difference is the end result will not produce an unbalanced gladiator with a large skill point advantage over other gladiators who did not do that and I think we can all agree that is a good thing. I hope that helps clarify what I meant.

I'm always sad to see a player go, however, if the recent change removed all the fun for you then it is understandable that you would think about moving on. I of course encourage you to stick around and I think you'll find all the fundamental things that drew you in and that you love about the game are all still there. If I am mistaken in that belief, I wish you well and hope that you find another game in the near future that brings you the same amount of enjoyment or more that PoW did for all these years. The Great Realm and the Pits will always welcome you should you decide to return one day.

Good luck outside the Pit!

-Nate-

[JerimyA5]

Thanks for taking the time to write your post, I appreciate it. Let me clarify the statement you've quoted. Those players who were leveling their gladiators slowly by avoiding the arena and only using the tavern and other non-arena areas of the game can still do that the same as before. The day to day activities of logging in doing tavern runs, engaging in the non-arena areas of the game and not using their fight tokens remains exactly the same. Nothing prevents a player from playing the game in that way. The only difference is the end result will not produce an unbalanced gladiator with a large skill point advantage over other gladiators who did not do that and I think we can all agree that is a good thing. I hope that helps clarify what I meant.

I can, kind of, see your point But let me say it this way. Nothing prevented any other player in the game from slow leveling glads the same way I did. The only thing that made it unbalancing, from my point of view, was that most other Stable Masters lacked the patience to do the same. If all of us did it that way the balance would have been unaffected. Am I wrong here somehow?

[Avengelyn]

Sigh...

First off it truly sucks that North Point is quitting PoW over this unfortunate situation.

Nate, by saying we can still slow play our warriors, your being completely disingenuous. Obviously we can mechanically still do it, thanks for pointing that out for us, however, the combination of changes you put in SEVERELY impacts that style of play from a competitive nature and you know that full well. We are near guaranteed to fail in the Pit, we can't effectively place & adjust the "extra" skills we have, and we now rocket up the charts for winning.

NP is correct in pointing out that everyone else had the opportunity to play the same way and declined for whatever reason. SOTC ran his new HoL all the way to Blood God's in Pile Driver's lifetime, obviously his premium was on getting to end game. My premium was on stable record and winning in the Pits, and I learned how to do it from others who performed it fully without being villified.

While I agree the changes you make are best for the game, the way you go about it sucks. The 2 day warning you provided should have been 2 months. I would have been just as hot at other changes you've done if I had been directly affected by them. If i had wasted a huge amount of time (and potentially real dollars) fine tuning gear from endless Conquest runs only to have you bump the cap to 55 like you did I'm not sure I would be here typing this, I give the guys at the top credit for not blowing up on that one.

BTW North Point, thanks for the gesture but minus Lady Mary, I might end up fighting someone 5 levels or more above me, who knows...

Avengelyn, Manager of Lethal Formula

[Apoca1ypse]

I know I've PM'd you nate, but I want to chime in publicly that some of the updates have rubbed me the wrong way. The content doesnt worry me, as I think that they're great changes for the most part. What has bothered me is the timing of them.

I personally dislike that the rating calculations and the fight rewards have changed 2/3 the way into the season. I know I'm mainly disgruntled by this because Ahhnold is looking like he's going to lose this season, but after putting in time/money/effort to get him (comfortably) on top only to have things pulled out from under his feet sucks. I've already missed out on 10 fight tokens since the kill reward system changed, and I was surviving on tokens from kills to keep up with the extra fights SOTC gets due to his pool of round robin opponents compared to mine. For those wondering, he is able to receive more challenges, in the order of about 10-12 more a week, which is a lot when fine margins are involved.

The level cap increase also threw some things out in a way that is harder for me to explain, but basically, some of the close matchups became way harder as there are now gladiators in full lvl 51 getups running around. A w/l drop from 80.1% to 78.6% doesnt seem like much, but its quite noticeable for ratings. Again, this is just something I would have preferred to have been put in place at the commencement of the next season.

The change to Pit Fight pairing pleases me greatly, and I've been looking forward to something like that for a while as it was nearly impossible to beat North Point and Lethal Formula, to the point that I gave up on pit fights. I know other managers did the same. I totally get that they had a vested interest in Pit Fights though, and I think that a bigger heads up would have been nice for their sake. At least 2 weeks or so. I do hope that JerimyA5 and Avengelyn stick around in some capacity despite these changes.

I would like to note that some of us older managers had tried to slow level and sandbag, but Nate put in a system to stop it so some degree about 18-24 months ago. He prevented gladiators from earning training points from tavern fights unless they were issuing a minimum number of challenges a week (or something like that) which stopped us from what we were doing back then. None of us revisited it as the new system felt so nerfed, and we got the message that sandbagging the pits was frowned upon. I personally didnt know that it was still so viable until I saw your gladiators doing it. Also, at least you guys got to reap the benefits of it for a while. I doubt anyone else has anywhere near the same level of pit fight wins to brag about :)



TLDR: What's done is done, and as always we will adjust. For future updates that can really affect play styles and season outcomes, more of a heads up would be appreciated.

/end rant

[Nate]

I personally dislike that the rating calculations and the fight rewards have changed 2/3 the way into the season.

As you know the Blood Gods bracket is not the same as the rest of the arena and the way gladiators are ranked is completely different. As such, the recent update did not affect the Blood Gods algorithm at all. Trophies being favored as rewards for kills instead of fight tokens affects everyone equally and I'm pretty sure everyone likes getting trophies. :) Ahhnold will continue to do an awesome job this Season I'm sure and the top spot will be a highly competitive race I look forward to watching.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Nate]

I can, kind of, see your point But let me say it this way. Nothing prevented any other player in the game from slow leveling glads the same way I did. The only thing that made it unbalancing, from my point of view, was that most other Stable Masters lacked the patience to do the same. If all of us did it that way the balance would have been unaffected. Am I wrong here somehow?


In this particular case, yes that assumption is incorrect. If all players avoided the arena no gladiators would ever fight in the arena. If nobody used their fight tokens nobody's gladiators would ever get matched up and no gladiators would enter the arena gates. The game would then become a single player game where gladiators only fought against NPC characters in the tavern, arena challenges, etc and the only PVP would be in the Black Market Pit Fights and if that was the case it should be called Jimmy's Pit of War and JPoW just doesn't quite roll off the tongue like PoW! :) Pit of War is first and foremost a PvP game about gladiatorial combat in the arena. The arena is the central focus of the game for obvious reasons. For a game about a Great Arena and gladiatorial combat I think you can see how and why this breaks down.

I understand your frustration though, nobody likes change and we all hate it even more when that change directly affects us. Hopefully you can now see why this change was made and why it was necessary.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Nate]

Nate, by saying we can still slow play our warriors, your being completely disingenuous.

Not disingenuous at all. I never make assumptions as to why players play PoW. Some players only play with one gladiator, some only use the rage specialty. I've seen some players run conquests all day while others run the gauntlet all day. I don't know why some favor one over the other, I can make an educated guess is all. We have some players who are only interested in fighting in the arena, and then we've had some who wanted to avoid the arena because they didn't fancy PvP but loved the idea of the Great Realm, the art work and the idea of leveling up a character. I've seen players only level their gladiators to level 10 or so before selling them and starting over time and time again. You would be surprised at the wide number of play styles I've seen. Were some players avoiding the arena and "slow leveling" because they enjoyed a slower pace and disliked the PVP? Sometimes yes, I've received messages from people about that before. Where some doing it to gain a skill advantage? Yes, we know that for sure. People play PoW for a lot of different reasons and I'm always getting new messages from players about some new idea or some off the wall thing I never imagined.


We are near guaranteed to fail in the Pit, we can't effectively place & adjust the "extra" skills we have, and we now rocket up the charts for winning.

I don't see this being the case. I think you'll find that gladiators will rise to their level of competitiveness and level off. I would expect the gladiators in question to eventually start taking on some losses for sure, but that is only because for so long the gladiators in question have been fighting gladiators far, far below their skill. I also expect they will continue to do quite well.


NP is correct in pointing out that everyone else had the opportunity to play the same way and declined for whatever reason. SOTC ran his new HoL all the way to Blood God's in Pile Driver's lifetime, obviously his premium was on getting to end game. My premium was on stable record and winning in the Pits, and I learned how to do it from others who performed it fully without being villified.

Please see my post to JerimyA5 as to why that assumption is incorrect. I recommend trying to not take anything personal. Nobody is pointing fingers, nobody is being vilified and nobody has been banned. A loophole in the game has been closed, that is all. It was done without any anger, malice or ill feelings. It was strictly a game design and business decision.


While I agree the changes you make are best for the game, the way you go about it sucks. The 2 day warning you provided should have been 2 months. I would have been just as hot at other changes you've done if I had been directly affected by them. If i had wasted a huge amount of time (and potentially real dollars) fine tuning gear from endless Conquest runs only to have you bump the cap to 55 like you did I'm not sure I would be here typing this, I give the guys at the top credit for not blowing up on that one.

A nice warning is great, I agree, however, I'm a one man team wearing multiple hats and juggling numerous tasks from biz dev, design, engineering, art, marketing, customer support, sys admin, janitor, etc. I don't think PoW will ever get a two months heads up on something. It's just how it is and how I work. I have a todo list and I do things as I have time and when I have time. I do my best to give a warning when possible though and I'll make an effort to offer an earlier warning in the future. Your frustration is noted, however, and reasonable. It should also be noted that PoW is always going to change and evolve as most games do these days. Players should expect this and not be surprised by it. Some players will be happy about the updates and some players will not. If I ever figure out how to make all players happy all of the time I'll write an instructional book about it, wait for it to hit the #1 best seller's list and retire to my newly purchased private island where I plan to clone dinosaurs and open a theme park. What could go wrong? ;)

Again, you have my sympathies and apologize for the frustration and grief this has caused you. If you would like to continue this discussion, send me a PM and I'll be happy to do so.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Alba Kebab]

I'll just chime in as well on the slow leveling and sandbagging pit fight thing.
Being one of the older players, I do remember that indeed was one area that was frowned upon, and there were min arena fight requirements to make sure glads are at least lvling somewhat in the old days specifically to discourage this.
I don't know when those original restrictions got left out in one of the many updates since, but I did notice it was viable to not lvl and just do tavern runs and hog pit fights again.
I've tried to get a few pit fight ranks for my newbie glad doing the same thing, but I am also aware this is likely an area that will be restricted again. Yes, some heads up ahead of time to warn the players involved to find a more 'healthy' style of play would have been nice and may have went down smoother than the anguish we are seeing now.

But for the players who are angry at this, you guys do have to see it from a meta game perspective and consider whether this is healthy for the game overall. Whilst your reasons for doing it may be perfectly legitimate to you, a few players sandbagging and slow lvling their glads is discouraging to other players and especially new players, who may find themselves outmatched without understanding why and get frustrated with the game and give up. Whilst you can make the argument "everyone can and/or should do this", I think we all know most players are not doing this, and I think everyone can understand a purposefully slow-leveled glad fighting a normally leveled glad is an unfair advantage.

[Sotc]

I have been wondering where the larger fight totals were coming from since I haven't been getting an abnormal amount of fight tokens. Hadn't considered the difference in fight queue. That would explain why my team suddenly shot up in ranking after the ratings change. I do agree with apoc that instituting such a change mid season is disruptive.

Also the reward for kills has been, in my view, devalued. I'd much rather have an arena token vs. 1 trophy (1/40) of an old trophy. The thrill of chaining kills has also been lost as well.

P.s. Did anyone ever get that issue where you'd make a kill on your first fight of the day while you had eight trophies, but afterwards your trophy total would be 7 instead of 8?

[Apoca1ypse]

the recent update did not affect the Blood Gods algorithm at all.

I was not aware of this. I take back my grievances on that as it is totally unfounded :P


I have been wondering where the larger fight totals were coming from since I haven't been getting an abnormal amount of fight tokens. Hadn't considered the difference in fight queue. That would explain why my team suddenly shot up in ranking after the ratings change. I do agree with apoc that instituting such a change mid season is disruptive.

Rating algorithm hasnt changed, but Ahhnold's w/l has dropped as difficult opponents have upgraded their gear, and I stopped earning fight tokens from kills. Your glads have had their w/l stay the same for the most part. Ahhnold dropped 2%. It took me a bit to work out the extra fights though. At first I thought it was because your guys were outside the top 10 and you were getting extra fights from trophies in the good old start of season scramble. As the season progressed and none of us could get extra fights though, I noticed that you were still getting way more fights. I spoke to Nate and he told me that Fight Token drops had been reduced somewhat, and as I started doing tavern fights again, I knew that that wasnt a difference between your stable and mine. I then settled on the fight que difference, but it wasnt an issue as kills had been earning me enough fight tokens to stay in front till recently.


Also the reward for kills has been, in my view, devalued. I'd much rather have an arena token vs. 1 trophy (1/40) of an old trophy. The thrill of chaining kills has also been lost as well.

I agree that kills feel very devalued now. If they gave an even bigger boost to ratings, it would feel ok to no longer get the fight token. Nate has said that he hasnt changed the BG rating algorithm, but maybe it is something he will change at the start of next season?


P.s. Did anyone ever get that issue where you'd make a kill on your first fight of the day while you had eight trophies, but afterwards your trophy total would be 7 instead of 8?

Never had the unawarded token issue afaik

[Adoede]

Avengelyn & Jerimy - Sorry to hear about your troubles with your previous style of play. I never had the patience to do that myself...

I hope you guys can come around to moving towards the end-game in blood gods because, to me, that is the best part of this game. Regardless if you get there slowly or quickly, blood gods is where Pit of War really comes into its own with all the build/gear/tactical strategies that come into play. The only difference between getting there slowly or quickly will be your glads overall record in the arena...which you'll see quickly becomes nearly meaningless in the blood gods season. You're so hopelessly outmatched in gear when you first get to blood gods that your sparkling 80%+ win/loss quickly becomes an overall 40% win/loss percentage. Maybe you buck the trend and your glads are competitive from the get-go. Still, the only ranking that matters in blood gods is your current season rank relative to your peers.

Blood gods can be great fun if you can figure out tactics and triggers that work and build your gear/strategies accordingly (we've lost a few managers who never could adapt their strategies from the regular game to the hyper-competitive environment of blood gods.)

Best of luck to ya and hope to see you in blood gods soon :cool:

[Apoca1ypse]

Dont forget the Blood Games :) You know your opponent 24hrs in advance so you have a full day to tweak your strategy to get the best shot at winning that match. Takes patience and dedication, which I think may be up your alley.


...I'm lazy and just go with "hit and hope" :P

[Nate]

One final thing I would like to say regarding the game in general and than I ask all future discussion on this topic be handled via PM is, I am unable to anticipate all possible outcomes a player might do. If you ever find yourself doing something that feels like it may be a loophole, please send me a message and ask if it is ok to do whatever it is you had in mind, I promise I won't bite. If you get my blessing on it, go ahead and tear up the arena with it. If you don't talk to me and it it turns out to be a loophole, you stand to lose a lot of work because it will get corrected and I don't enjoy upsetting people and making people unhappy, I really truly don't.

Now would be a great time to send me questions if you are currently doing anything or planning on doing something you *think* might not be ok. If you have the slightest feeling it might not be considered cool, please for the love of the Blood Gods and their newly purchased puppy Patches, ask me now. :)

I ask you all to remember I'm a one man band and I will never be able to water proof the game 100%. I will do my best, but I leave it up to everyone to play the game according to the "spirit" of the game, not the "letter" of game meaning "if the game lets me do it, it must be ok", sometimes that may be true, other times it may not. I think for the majority of things it is very obvious but for those times when it is not and you are unsure if something is ok to do, just ask me. I'm actually a really nice guy despite what the media says about me! ;)

Thanks again for your understanding and feedback, I appreciate it.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[JerimyA5]

I don't disagree at all that the endgame would be the best part. That's true of any good game imo. And POW is a very good game. I did in fact have 2 glads in Blood Gods. Getting their brains stomped into the sands daily. And I very much looked forward to learning what it takes to slow the rate at which they were getting trounced. lol

I loved the early parts of the game as well however, and have never liked rushing to the endgame as most players seem to in most games. I prefer to take my time, enjoy and do my best in all aspects of the game, not just the one part everyone else likes. Nate clearly doesn't like that however. It seems he feels that players that do their best in any aspect of the game besides just the end are disruptive and undesirable. I have no wish to disrupt or unbalance the game so I'm just going to move on. My stable has already been reset and this will be my last post on this forum. I shouldn't be clogging it up if I'm not even playing any longer.

Thanks for all the facetious responses Nate. It makes leaving easier. lol

Best of luck to you all in the Pits!!!

[oedi]

I leave it up to everyone to play the game according to the "spirit" of the game, not the "letter" of game meaning "if the game lets me do it, it must be ok"
Ill just make a brief statement on this, in a game i will always play by the letter until told otherwise, i just dont feel I got any obligation to judge whats the spirit of the game.

[Avengelyn]

One final thing I would like to say regarding the game in general and than I ask all future discussion on this topic be handled via PM is, I am unable to anticipate all possible outcomes a player might do. If you ever find yourself doing something that feels like it may be a loophole, please send me a message and ask if it is ok to do whatever it is you had in mind, I promise I won't bite. If you get my blessing on it, go ahead and tear up the arena with it. If you don't talk to me and it it turns out to be a loophole, you stand to lose a lot of work because it will get corrected and I don't enjoy upsetting people and making people unhappy, I really truly don't.

Now would be a great time to send me questions if you are currently doing anything or planning on doing something you *think* might not be ok. If you have the slightest feeling it might not be considered cool, please for the love of the Blood Gods and their newly purchased puppy Patches, ask me now. :)

I ask you all to remember I'm a one man band and I will never be able to water proof the game 100%. I will do my best, but I leave it up to everyone to play the game according to the "spirit" of the game, not the "letter" of game meaning "if the game lets me do it, it must be ok", sometimes that may be true, other times it may not. I think for the majority of things it is very obvious but for those times when it is not and you are unsure if something is ok to do, just ask me. I'm actually a really nice guy despite what the media says about me! ;)

Thanks again for your understanding and feedback, I appreciate it.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

Nate,

I’d really like some public confirmation in regards to your post because I feel threatened by it, and I think others may be as well. Within this thread you referred to what me and some others did as a loophole, and in this last post you seem to indicate that if another loophole is exploited that you would not only fix the loophole, but punish the persons performing it, which has me a tad concerned since I fully intend to force you to change the game several more times, as a matter of gamesmanship not some evil intent. By that I mean that I don’t feel obligated to tell you how I intend to gain a strategic advantage before actually gaining said advantage, since that would defeat the payoff of the strategy.

I’ve already brought up to you in this post my concerns about the Pit matches being against the same warrior repeatedly, and you sort of shrugged it off, albeit with a threat. My best friend runs Team Triangle and Soul Maidens, and right now some of my lower level “sandbaggers” are Pit locked against his “sandbaggers” and he is getting the worst of it right now. Fortunately or unfortunately, his warriors, despite being lower level than mine are nonetheless able to defeat mine enough so mine don’t win the Pit challenge, but what if that were to change in the future? We have already had a discussion with each other about being very careful of how we handle our strategies so that we won’t be accused of collusion in this situation, and I just told you that we are friends so now everyone knows.

As another example, the void created by North Point’s deletion of his warriors, Piledriver now fights 2 different 90+ skilled warriors, one of which is a few levels above him, and the other a full 10 levels above him, however, it does appear that they are inferior to Piledriver at this time, so I suspect he will win most if not all of the matchups. Is this something I should be concerned about? I mean the guy has more skills than me and is 10 levels higher, and it’s a function of a nerf of your creation, so am I right in believing I’m “in the clear” on that example?

Long story short, you’ve addressed what you perceived to be a loophole in the game, and so now there WILL be another “superior” way to win not only in the Pits, but in all areas of the game which I fully intend to find. I see it as no different that when the Agility dual wielders dominated the top of the game vs the 2h weapon warriors, and thus you rebalanced the game to address it. To my knowledge those managers that skewed the game in their favor by stacking agility wrote that off as good strategy and I would surely agree. In most all games there is a superior strategy, and those strategies change as the game is changed to address them. We aren’t talking about someone hacking into the website or something of that nature, policy on those kinds of thing don’t warrant discussion.

You obviously keep a very close eye on your game, and are willing to change it without notice, so I guess what I’m inquiring about is why threaten the players for implementing sound strategy (beyond a change to game mechanics) to dominate a sector of the game?

If you would please clarify your feelings on the above I’d greatly appreciate it so I can go about having fun playing the game knowing whether or not this anvil over my head is real or just an illusion.

Thanks in advance,

Avengelyn, Manager of Lethal Formula

[Avengelyn]

Avengelyn & Jerimy - Sorry to hear about your troubles with your previous style of play. I never had the patience to do that myself...

I hope you guys can come around to moving towards the end-game in blood gods because, to me, that is the best part of this game. Regardless if you get there slowly or quickly, blood gods is where Pit of War really comes into its own with all the build/gear/tactical strategies that come into play. The only difference between getting there slowly or quickly will be your glads overall record in the arena...which you'll see quickly becomes nearly meaningless in the blood gods season. You're so hopelessly outmatched in gear when you first get to blood gods that your sparkling 80%+ win/loss quickly becomes an overall 40% win/loss percentage. Maybe you buck the trend and your glads are competitive from the get-go. Still, the only ranking that matters in blood gods is your current season rank relative to your peers.

Blood gods can be great fun if you can figure out tactics and triggers that work and build your gear/strategies accordingly (we've lost a few managers who never could adapt their strategies from the regular game to the hyper-competitive environment of blood gods.)

Best of luck to ya and hope to see you in blood gods soon :cool:

Adoede,

Thanks for the post.

Yes i am looking forward to competing at the high end now that i have HoL's, but i'm trying to do it in such a way that i dont get brutalized like you suggested =)

Yea i was mad bout the change, but I refocused and am already scheming again. I don't think my time in the game will be ending anytime soon unless Nate boots me for breaking his systems =)

For certain i am fired up bout the new classes that are in development, that should be good fun for all.

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on the issue.

[Apoca1ypse]

Yes i am looking forward to competing at the high end now that i have HoL's, but i'm trying to do it in such a way that i dont get brutalized like you suggested =)

YAY :D Look forward to seeing you on the sands :)

If your guys have complete builds, you'll fair better than most gladiators that get newly promoted. It will become a case of earning gear and tweeking strats. Gear isnt wont be as much of an issue now that you get awarded with a heap of BGPs upon promotion and can get some new goodies the moment you bump up :)


For certain i am fired up bout the new classes that are in development, that should be good fun for all.

Everyone will be seeking a way to break the new classes at the start, so you wont be alone there :P

[Nate]

Take care JerimyA5, I hope you find another game to play soon. I and the Great Realm will welcome your return if you ever choose to do so.

Good luck outside the Pit!

-Nate-

[Nate]

What exactly is an exploit or a loophole? This reminds me of a trial about obscenity awhile back and the judge said he can not define obscenity but he knows it when he sees it. Perhaps some examples of what is and is not cheating/loopholes/exploits, etc would be useful. Choosing to use two blades vs 2H weapon is not an exploit, or choosing to stack agility or strength, it is an obvious part of the design of the game. Discovering an extremely powerful combination of skills would not be an exploit in and of itself, it may however be decided it is too unbalanced and be addressed. Choosing to have all rage gladiators on your team is not an exploit, creating a clever fight strategy with the triggers is not an exploit unless it somehow took advantage of a bug. Sandbagging a gladiator for the express purpose of having a large skill advantage is an exploit. Purposefully having one of your own gladiators throw a fight to another gladiator with the intent of manipulating the rankings in the Blood Games is an exploit. Knowing that a certain area of the game that should cost gold or trophies but a bug is preventing it from doing so and you take advantage of that is an exploit. Figuring out how to take advantage of a bug is an exploit. Grabbing skills just to gain achievements with the plan to then unlearn those skills but keep the achievements would be an exploit. Just because everyone else could have done it doesn't mean it is ok. If someone locks the door to their house but leaves a window open does that mean it is ok to climb inside and steal things just because anyone could do it? I think most people would say it is not ok. If someone is truly playing around and trying things out in the name of gamesmanship and finding flaws and loopholes, that person would also immediately report anything suspicious when discovered. There is no concrete definition here, which is why it is best to ask if you are unsure.

We obviously can't list everything out and I don't think it is too much to ask for everyone to use common sense. I understand many of you are very competitive and I've designed PoW in such a way to allow for a lot of creative builds and strategies, without needing to manipulate the meta game to extreme degrees. Be creative, but please don't exploit the game. When in doubt ask. It is really that simple. Often you may find that it is fine to do whatever it is you are doing or thinking of doing. My goal is to give you just enough rope so you can't hang yourself but maybe you can stand on the chair and almost tie it around your neck. :) Which is also why in the past I have not been ruthless when lines are crossed and in return for over three years the vast majority of players have not taken things to extremes.

I invite everyone to re-read (or read for the first time the Terms & Services (http://pitofwar.com/index/terms) for the game) and please pay close attention to section 6c xix. It states that: no player will engage in cheating or any other activity deemed by Outcast Games to be in conflict with the spirit or intent of the Service. Everyone agreed to follow the T&C when signing up to play the game.

The issue of sandbagging has always been frowned upon as many other players have mentioned, I simply didn't have the time or resources to address it properly. A small dev team or indie is not able to address things as swiftly as large companies can. Large companies also won't give you the time of day to address your grievances or bother responding to your emails and forum posts unless you count automated responses. As players we have to choose what is more important to us. Jimmy's Pit Fights will likely continue to see changes as I dial it in to be more in line with what I had in mind for it to be like when first creating it.

If the only way someone can have fun playing Pit of War is to try and exploit the game in a negative manner then I would rather they choose another game to exploit. And when I say exploit I am referring to using questionable methods like some of the ones mentioned above. There are no hard feelings surrounding this either and I'm not passing judgment on them or their preferred way of playing games. If that is how a player derives their enjoyment from a game it is simply not compatible with my philosophy and vision for PoW and I'm certain the community at large agrees. I often have players email me about exploits because they want me to know about them and correct them so it doesn't adversely affect the game they love to play. Those players are always rewarded for their actions in helping me. Some of you will remember Caine, that guy was almost like my one man army volunteer play tester in the early days as he discovered issues as he played the game. When he would find one he would report it instead of using it to gain an advantage. I don't expect anyone to go to the lengths he did, but I do expect players to not knowingly and willingly exploit the game. I will not hesitate to protect the integrity of the game and keep the experience as fun as possible for as many people as possible. I owe it to the community to do so.

Having said that, be creative and discover new builds, fight strategies and gear combinations. Regarding meta game strategies, most are totally ok, some are not. Ask if you are unsure. I usually respond to messages in less than 24 hours. Have fun, enjoy the game and be a good citizen of the Great Realm. If and when a balance pass happens or a change occurs, please don't take is personally, it is always for the good of the game and never a personal attack. I'm certain the overwhelming majority of players over the years will say I've always done right by them.

So as to be clear I will say this again. If you are currently doing anything or planning on doing something you *think* might not be ok or you are just not sure, ask me first if you want to be on the safe side. If you do not and it is later found out and deemed to be an exploit, you may be subjected to consequences, including but not limited to: A warning. The loss of any and all content, progress and benefits acquired under dubious circumstances. A suspension from the game or in some cases, a permanent ban from Pit of War depending on the severity. For over three years this has never happened, not even close. We have an awesome community and players and I have faith we can keep it that way. :) You're all a great group of players, let's put this behind us now and look to the future and fun!

If your gladiators were affected in the recent update and you feel they are now outclassed, I will be happy to modify them manually so that their ranking and skill points are that of a gladiator of their level. You can then begin to build from there. If you prefer to keep what you have and are happy that is completely fine, I'm confident they will continue to do well. If you would like to take me up on this offer, send me a PM.

All further discussion should be via PM if you would like to talk further or have any questions.

Now that all that unpleasant stuff is taken care of, go forth and stain the sands red with the blood of your enemies and continue helping to make this already great community even better! And as always...

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-