k.o again :)

[oedi]

Ive always hated the K.O skill, its just to random for my liking, but its not that id like to discuss.

Are K.O the only activated skill that can trigger while your on the ground, and whats your thoughts about that.

I for one would ofcourse like it to be like any other activated skill no trigger while on the ground.

[Cynaidh]

My biggest hate is there is no real counter, Beltank has had Iron Jaw at 10 for over a month, in the past couple of weeks i know he has been KO'ed several times, in fact i had one string of 3 fights where he was KO'ed each fight. The skill really seems to do nothing and is a waste of points (i regret spending the trophies to change to it for sure).

[Sotc]

@Oedi technically KO isn't an activated but passive skill. I don't think that activated skills won't trigger when knocked down, I'm pretty sure I've been adren rush/rampaged by razael when I've knocked him down :P

@Cyn I don't have hard data, but anecdotally, I do feel that I score noticeably less KOs against wars with points in iron jaw

Edit: I might be mistaken about the activated attacks when knocked down. Knocked down glads do appear to not use activated attacks (what about activated defenses e.g. create distance?). Maybe I mixed it up with hamstring.

[Dainoji]

I've seen a lot less KOs when glads have iron jaw. I also think Urks gets KO'd less as well even though it doesn't list that as a special for the race. Maybe it is lumped in there with stun resist.

[Kreegan]

KOs suck, there should be no instant win skills in any game. Random KOs once in every 30-40 battles are OK, the skill is not.

I have not seen any defensive active skill trigger when your fighter is on the ground, not sure about the offensive ones.

[Pit Lord]

Are K.O the only activated skill that can trigger while your on the ground, and whats your thoughts about that.

Knockout is passive skill...

Passive skills are ON even when gladiator is on the ground.

Activated skills (any) cannot be used while on the ground.

[oedi]

ok K.O is passive, it just feels very active when it its you :)


Activated skills (any) cannot be used while on the ground.
I aswell know for sure that no attacks activate while on ground, only defensive skill ive tracked is never say die, and that will never trigger while on the ground.


My biggest hate is there is no real counter, Beltank has had Iron Jaw at 10 for over a month, in the past couple of weeks i know he has been KO'ed several times, in fact i had one string of 3 fights where he was KO'ed each fight. The skill really seems to do nothing and is a waste of points (i regret spending the trophies to change to it for sure).


@Cyn I don't have hard data, but anecdotally, I do feel that I score noticeably less KOs against wars with points in iron jaw
I got some numbers from 2 of my glads one with iron jaw and one without.
1122 no iron jaw
numbers from his last 39 losses, only 1122`s initiated fights
2 ko from war(foxtrot :))
11 ko from theatrics
2 reg loss from theatrics (yuki, siam)
1 reg loss war tank (beltank)
1 reg loss war other (belca)
22 reg loss for rage
lady devious 10 points in iron jaw 39 last losses any fight
2 ko from theatrics
0 ko from others
15 reg losses from theatrics
7 reg losses from war
15 reg losses from rage

looks to me that like iron jaw does a decent job, but I think K.O`s are overrepresented in 1122 statistic since he not usually loose to theatrics unless they knock him.

[Cynaidh]

You seem to have better luck then I do with it then Oedi, just this morning 8 fight tokens, 2 of them losses to KO with 10 Iron Jaw.

[Kreegan]

Has the KO chance been increased? Lately literally every gladiator who has that skills manages to KO my fighters, it's getting quite annoying.

[weaw]

I dislike KO (as the win condition) for both sides, when my gladiators recieve it and when my gladiators do it.

As the skill... In fact, this skill used not for fighting, but only to get win/frag/etc... And i (almost) agree with Kreegan's words: "there should be no instant win skills in any game".
And as a skill it's looks too ... artificial:
-- Why is it passive? The problem (as i see) is not only "the gladiator on the ground is able to use passives". But generally: the passive "action" works as an effect on an opponent (and this effect is the condition to win a fight :). Looks like nonsense, sorry.
-- Why only head as an attack spot (a "humanoid" body has a lot of spots to do knockout with hit to them)?
-- Why the War-skill-tree has so worthless skill only to defend against KO skill (as a defense from random KO the Iron Jaw much worthless) while the Theatrics-skill-tree (for example) has so usefull skills at same level?
-- We already have the realistic KO realisation in the game. It is the Stun effect. To be more correct, i can to say: Stun+Prone=Knockout.

// The situation around Knockout vs Iron Jaw reminds me crits %, anti-crits %, anti-anti-crits %, etc. It's a road to the Great Void.

[Ogornomus]

As my gladiators got higher level I noticed an increase in getting K.O.-d. Mostly against theatrics wich is not a surprise. How ever it is not that often.
If I would try to defend against it I would wear a heavier helmet, or set my strategy to defend head. At the moment it is not that annoying for me. Maybe at Primus and Blood Goods level. I guess when you get chain K.O-d one day it is frustrating and it can cause confirmation bias that this skill is too overpowered. On the other side, how many matches do these K.O. theathrics win with the skill (match that they would not have won)? I think it is not as reliable as one might think.

[Adoede]

For whatever reason, I've noticed it more these days too...perhaps it's time to pick it up again

[oedi]

My ko blood gods glad has made 9 ko`s in her last 10 victories.
Of the 7 fights I looked at that was theatric vs theatric 1 was won on reducing hp, rest was ko.
thanks btw for bringing this topic back from the dead, so I once again can say I hate this skill and it should be taken out of the game.

[Flash]

really you think it´s a good idea? i mean this is a skill which makes theatrics competitive against tanks and against 2handed rages. how often do i see one hit rampages? is this a reason to remove the skill from the game? another good example is hard to hit. sometimes only 1 of 10 attacks hits the target and is this the fault of the skill? no i must work on my strategy. sure luck is important, too. most of the game is math and luck nothing else.

[Kreegan]

There are several Theatrics builds which can handle Rages quite well without knockout. And tanks.

Rampage is not insta-win skill so this comparison is not very good. In fact it's pretty balanced despite the huge damage it deals, normally. I've seen fights when Rampage triggers successfully 3-4 times and the Rage still loses. I'm yet to see one fight where KO triggers and the Theatrics loses (except when he/she's on the receiving end).

If you get Called Shot you'll hit the desired spot most of the time, all KO Theatrics make that not-exactly-rocket-science combo.

[Nate]

Has the KO chance been increased?


Hi Kreegan, nothing has changed in years regarding KO.

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Flash]

not every build is good against other builds. yes the skill knockout is very strong and I know that it seems unfair when your enemy is losing and he turn the fight with one hit, but i think it´s to easy to remove a problem it´s hard to find a solution for. check the statistics theatrics gladiator are not as dominant as you try to make us all believe. in the BG´s rage gladiator are more successfully than the other gladiators. by the way it´s to early for this discussion because we don´t know how the new Shadow Specialty will change the balance.

[Kreegan]

Not sure since when you're playing PoW but until recently the speed Theatrics builds, usually Elaars, were the dominant type of gladiators in Blood Gods. They were on the top for... an year or so? The few 2H Rages who have a decent life during the last few months owe their success largely to the tanks who in turn keep other dangerous (for the Rages) builds outside of striking range. Such compositions are anything but new and hardly show how good one build is against the other possible builds - just how good it is at the given moment.

Shadows have nothing to do with knockouts. That skill is just a cheap substitute for strategy and an annoying safeguard that no matter how bad your fighter is in general, he or she will still win from time to time when the dice rolls right. At the very least, I think its trigger should be reduced to critical hits only.

@Nate, thanks for the answer.

[Apoca1ypse]

We still dont know what variables influence KO, and to what degree. Increased KO rate may be because of better gear for stat stacking, or it may simply be coincidence and luck of the dice.

I still dont like KO as a skill, but it's been a part of the game for more than 2 years, so it's a known boogeyman that most of us have come to terms with.

[Flash]

Kreegan i just say there is more than one way to win a fight.

sorry i can´t tell you exactly how long i play this game because i forget it, but i remember the times last stand was a rage skill.

[Adoede]

Considering Flash has more fights than Apoc's Team Win and the 2nd most fights overall of any stable, I'd say he's been around a looooong time.

A well run elite Tank can beat any theatrics 99% of the time aside from knockouts. Today, Seraph Zeta lost to a theatrics for the first time in a long time - by knockout. I know it's a controversial skill, but I run three theatrics - one speed, one whip entangle, and one net entangle - and none of them has beaten an elite tank in many seasons...and I've tried all sorts of things to boost their attack, armor penetration, endurance, bleed, etc... If knockout starts getting useful again, that will bring another potential shift to the meta-game along with the new shadows (btw, Zynaidh's loss to Seraph Zurell made me think shadows will have a tough time against hybrid wars and maybe even against the elite tank wars in blood gods)

And Kreegan is right that the tanks suppress everyone else except the 2H Ragers who manage to get out ahead of the speedsters in the rankings. Having theatrics find any level of success against those tanks will dramatically shift the meta-game.

For my part, I only started a tank because you need one for conquests. Wouldn't be sad to see tanks fall back to the pack.

[Team Kaos]

Oh, I do love the debate of the KO. I love the KO skill, and indeed there are certain weapons that excel at KO then others as well as certain Strategies.
My upper Theatrics were pretty consistent at about 35%-40% KO rate per 10 wins throughout Maximus and lower Primus. They now sit around 25%-30% per 10 in upper Primus. However it does seem very roller coaster, none for a bit and then they can just rattle off 5 or 6 KO's per 10, but it always seems to settle around the 25%-30% in the long run.

I also don't see any problem with the KO as a match ender, when they need to defend themselves against 500 pt DFA hits almost every 3 rounds, or 800+ Rampage bombs in the first and 4 rounds. All those hits are more then likely landing then not. Every build has its strength and weakness, and for a Theatrics that is built for the KO, they are giving up a lot of power in order to land a higher amount of quality hits to the head, as well as reducing their bleed rate by aiming for the head opposed to more fleshy parts.

Every fighter gives up something to excel at something else. If a Rage can end a match in 2 or 3 hits, and a War can wear a steel dome on his head as well as hold the Iron Jaw skill to reduce the KO chances dramatically while tanking hits to 2 points or landing DFA's at 500 a pop. Then the Theatrics KO and it's randomized chances are just par for the course.

[Kreegan]

I don't see what Theatrics are giving up so much to train KO. Spending 10 skill points from a certain increase of your win record isn't really a tough decision to make. But that's not even the point. If KO was a skill that helped your gladiator fight better, as weaw put it, it would have been OK - but that's not what it does. I feel robbed when my fighter completely dominates the opponent, then he/she scores some mosquito bite hit for 20 damage to the head, planets align and "it's lights out". Or when the battle doesn't even start because the first hit results in KO. Where's the fun in that? Or where is the strategy?

[Ogornomus]

Where's the fun in that? Or where is the strategy?

The strategy is in hitting them in the head :p

You are right though. It is not fun to lose to a random K.O. But I think that applies to an early disarm (and the gadiator gets a weapon he can't use) or anny effect that comes at random and just loses you the match instantly (like getting knocked to the ground and unable to get up or getting chain stunned).

[Dainoji]

I'm sure half these fighters felt cheated too. They still deserved the loss! :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJKLI3lssHM

[Dainoji]

Getting knocked out doesn't require a huge hit, it's more about placement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWE79K2Ii-s

[Dainoji]

I love the KO skill and so does LL Cool J!

The official theatrics theme song!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vimZj8HW0Kg

[Kreegan]

Yeah, these guys are also wearing steel helmets that can deflect mace blows. They're just transparent, obviously.

@Ogornomus, yes, first hit disarm or knockdown or stun can be a fight-winner quite often but your fighter doesn't automatically lose. I've seen more than a few fights where one of the gladiators recovers after a very bad start and manages to turn the battle upside down. Far more acceptable than "you lose, period".

[Flash]

you talk about the knockout skill like it was a sure win when you hit your enemies head once. believe me it´s not. but what interest me more, how would you replace the skill?

[oedi]

To me the KO skill is just plain boring it makes the game less fun to play. I would suggest instead a skill where you could target different parts of the gladiator to gain advantages in the fight.

[Flash]

i would suggest to replace knockout with entangle and create a new tier 5 skill for theatrics, but only just in case

[Apoca1ypse]

Considering Flash has more fights than Apoc's Team Win and the 2nd most fights overall of any stable, I'd say he's been around a looooong time.

Flash has indeed been around for a long time :)

Also, I ran only 2 gladiators for over a year, so it's pretty easy for people to have more fights than me :P


And Kreegan is right that the tanks suppress everyone else except the 2H Ragers who manage to get out ahead of the speedsters in the rankings. Having theatrics find any level of success against those tanks will dramatically shift the meta-game.

For my part, I only started a tank because you need one for conquests. Wouldn't be sad to see tanks fall back to the pack.

To be fair, for a long time Blood Gods was a round robin format, and it was Speed Theatrics on top (with KO trained), with Speed Rage and 2H Rage still making a good showing. Towards the end of round robin, Tanks were also starting to make their way to the top.

The new format does lead to some stratification, but the way pairings are being made and the monthly reset does a lot to prevent this.

TL;DR 2H rage was already near the top of the game. Also, all this argument of XYZ style is now poop because it isnt #1 coincides with SOTC taking a break. His incredibly dominant stable caused gladiators of each style to take the #1 spot, and also presented a big shakeup in the metagame when he was playing.



To me the KO skill is just plain boring it makes the game less fun to play. I would suggest instead a skill where you could target different parts of the gladiator to gain advantages in the fight.

I agree that it is a lazy skill, and you can ride it to victory with speed based weapons, which is how Arrrrrghpirate won a lot of his otherwise unfavorable matches.

I do not believe it to be a game breaking skill, but I will agree 100% that it is a skill that leaves you feeling like the fun was taken away from the fight. It just simply ends the fight when it triggers. People liken DFA and Rampage as other culprits, but those often do NOT get the job done. There is still a "I hope I get to swing back and claw this fight back" when you're scrolling down and see DFA and Rampage trigger because you can only hit for so much damage with those, and a lot of players stack HP. You cant really stack "resist KO" except for Iron Jaw, which is 10 skill points, not some stats on armor/achievements.

TL;DR: KO is not broken. It just isn't fun.

[Adoede]

I like Flash's suggestion that Entangle be moved to tier 4 to replace Knockout (always seemed odd that Entangle was a tier 5 for theatrics and a tier 4 for shadow...)

Not sure what to replace it with though...

The theatrics ineffectiveness vs. tanks could be due to nobody having found that right formula yet. I've changed build strategies on my own three theatrics so many times that they are still a long ways away from being gear-optimized compared to my other glads (which makes fair comparison more difficult).

But when you've got a theatrics with near 300 agility and running with +150 attack power, +200 armor penetration, and 150 endurance yet they still can't beat an elite tank, it starts to get a little discouraging for the style. The only times I've seen theatrics beat an elite tank these days (excluding knockout) is because those tanks aren't running the best strategies to counter theatrics. Those theatrics always lose to the tanks running the right strats.

I suppose stacking +700 armor penetration might help...maybe I'll try that next.

[Stormcloak]

I agree that KO certainly isn't fun when it's successful against you - especially when it happens when the match just starts, or right before you finish your opponent off. It is quite binary in nature - it's either yes or no, compared to many other skills that have more of a degree of effect.

Hmm... with the tank issue brought up... maybe if the trug's weakness was changed from low initiative to being more susceptible to KO's (while KO effectiveness is dialed back a bit for the others) and iron jaw was replaced with something else that could shift things to a more exciting meta game? That way you could still build one of those tanks, but the theatrics would have a build more capable of taking those lumbering behemoths down.

[Kreegan]

you talk about the knockout skill like it was a sure win when you hit your enemies head once. believe me it´s not. but what interest me more, how would you replace the skill?There are plenty of things it can be replaced with but I'd go with a reintroduction of Second Wind. If you remember Last Stand, you'll remember this one too. It was pretty useless before the skill tree changes but I can certainly see it in use now. I suspect that Nate has reserved it for another class though.

[Adoede]

Well...ignore everything I've been saying about tanks owning theatrics. My theatrics just took out a tank without knockout...as did Smoking Bob...

[Team Kaos]

I don't see it as cheapening a fight. It's a SKILL, to knock the other fighter out. Yes some are random, but to get a higher percentage KO rate you forgo a bigger hit and accuracy by setting your strat more in favor of the knockout.
Anyone remember Mike Tyson?? He knocked out 17 mofo's in under 2 minutes of the 1st round in his 50 something pro fights. People use to go nuts watching him knock the crap outta dudes.
How much of a emotional swing is it to watch your glad get pummeled down to his last 200 health while barely getting a swing on target and then laying a temple buster that puts the opponent on the ground.....feels real nice. It also feels real sucky when you lighting someone up cruising to easy victory and then BAMM! The lights go out....

KO is no guarantee to happen but there are ways to increase its chances...

As for Second Wind and Last Stand..I really don't miss those skills at all. Not one bit.

[Kreegan]

I don't think anyone misses Last Stand, that thing was nearly game-breaking. Second Wind though - I can certainly see it implemented in a Never Say Die fashion - not always triggering but giving a good boost when it does. Getting additional endurance to keep fighting, relying on bleeding or another strategy trigger sounds much better to me than to just drop the opponent because it's that cool to end the fight in a sudden.

[weaw]

It's a SKILL, to knock the other fighter out. I think, You are confusing the name and ... the content of this skill. The name is Knockout, yes. But it's a skill not to knock the fighter out, but to win a fight instantly.
So,
KO is no guarantee to happen ... sounds funny.

// That content has no analogy among other skills...

[Team Kaos]

I think, You are confusing the name and ... the content of this skill. The name is Knockout, yes. But it's a skill not to knock the fighter out, but to win a fight instantly.
So, sounds funny.

// That content has no analogy among other skills...


Knockout is just that, it is a Skill that Knocks the opponent OUT..fight over..lights out..see you tomorrow.
It is not called KnockDown...it is Knockout---KO!!

KO is basically a passive dice rolling skill of each hit, maybe it will KO the opponent, maybe it won't. It is not a stacking passive skill such as Total Carnage or Brute Force among others that just stack on power bonuses on every swing. Iron Jaw and Grim Determination are always passively active, there is not dice roll for them to maybe work.

Each skill tree has its own devastating skills, DFA from a War and Rampage from Rage, Theatrics has KO. Shadow's seem the only without that massive single skill, but they do have a multiple of awesome skills that work together offensively and defensively making a Shadow a pretty nasty fighter.

[Kreegan]

Brute Force and Total Carnage do not stack, otherwise there would be an increase of the hitting power of the gladiator who has them with every hit. They may be flat bonuses, they may be percentage bonuses but they don't add extra value with time.

Frankly I don't understand that comparison between Rampage, DFA and KO. The first two obviously don't win the fight if the dice rolls in your favour, can be deflected, can be disabled by Create Distance, can be taken out by knockdowns (the latter doesn't even apply to KO), have cooldowns. In other words - they are completely normal skills that help your gladiator fight better, not win more by default.

[Dainoji]

Frankly I don't understand how none of your gladiators have trained in Iron Jaw given your dislike of being knocked out. A solution to mitigate your problem lies before you in the open and you've completely ignored it. I know, it's because it doesn't stop it from happening 100% of the time right? ;) The KO skill can be thought of as a super rampage and it being one level down on the tree that makes sense. And just like rampage or any high damaging skill, KO can be stopped. Every hit to the head is a potential KO, so anytime a glad stops a hit to the head whether it be via a parry, a magical block or a skill like create distance is a potential KO being stopped. I suspect Urks have a hidden defense against being knocked out as I rarely see it happen with Thunder Lips. If you really don't want to get knocked out, train iron jaw and choose Urk as your race.

[weaw]

Frankly I don't understand that comparison between Rampage, DFA and KO. Yes, these skills of different types, categories etc. But there may be some reason to compare these skills. As a skills which associated with a win for each speciality.

I'll try to explain what i mean here:

The core of a (mysterious) balance is the equality of a wins quantity for each speciality.
At this point of view there is no difference how exactly the win happens.

We could imagine an abstract skill-tree with only one skill named, for example, "summon meteor": The gladiator have only 1 hp always. He has no armor or weapon. But if meteor triggered and happen, an opponent is dead.
And it's ok for balance, if the win percentage for this speciality will be same as for Rage, War, etc.

So, we may look at KO as it is just balance regulator.

But the problem is that we are playing PoW not only for a wins messages. We are playing not for seeing a good balance. But much more for a fights contents.

And the KO skill is bad. Because it has no fight content. Moreover, it breaks the content of the fight.
It's bad, also, because it too artificial like meteor summoning. And unlike every meteor. :)

[Kreegan]

Frankly I don't understand how none of your gladiators have trained in Iron Jaw given your dislike of being knocked out. A solution to mitigate your problem lies before you in the open and you've completely ignored it. I know, it's because it doesn't stop it from happening 100% of the time right? ;) The KO skill can be thought of as a super rampage and it being one level down on the tree that makes sense. And just like rampage or any high damaging skill, KO can be stopped. Every hit to the head is a potential KO, so anytime a glad stops a hit to the head whether it be via a parry, a magical block or a skill like create distance is a potential KO being stopped. I suspect Urks have a hidden defense against being knocked out as I rarely see it happen with Thunder Lips. If you really don't want to get knocked out, train iron jaw and choose Urk as your race.Oh, but I did. Twice. You should try it too. When my last gladiator who had it got knocked out 3 times out of 5 fights, I decided that I had enough of it.

[Ogornomus]

Oh, but I did. Twice. You should try it too. When my last gladiator who had it got knocked out 3 times out of 5 fights, I decided that I had enough of it.

3 of 5 is not realy representative of the effectiveness of Iron Jaw. You may had an extereme case of unluck. Just recently one of my gladiators K.O.-d two opponenets in a row, while having no training in Knockout and my theatric who is currently training it didn't do one since he started training it. So I could conclude that Knockout is not working.

[Flash]

Kreegan which stable belongs to you? I want to take a look at your issue.

[Kreegan]

3 of 5 is not realy representative of the effectiveness of Iron Jaw. You may had an extereme case of unluck. Just recently one of my gladiators K.O.-d two opponenets in a row, while having no training in Knockout and my theatric who is currently training it didn't do one since he started training it. So I could conclude that Knockout is not working.
No, you get me wrong - that was just the point where I completely lost patience with the skill. I had it on the said gladiator for months, before that I had it on another one for half an year. I've written a lot about Iron Jaw and how "nice" it is but, again, try it yourself.

@Flash, the stable is Hive but I'm not sure what you'll be looking for. My guys have nothing to hide though. :)

[Adoede]

It's not just the Knockout skill in the theatrics skill tree that dramatically turns a fight - Surprise Ending does that too. How many times has my 2H Rage had the fight easily in hand only to have a final rampage thrown back in his face. I've always wondered how it makes any sense that a Theatrics could throw back a Rampage for 2500+ damage when they are not capable of doing anywhere near that kind of damage themselves. But, I don't make the rules here :cool:

It seems Nate's vision for the theatrics skill tree IS for that dramatic 'fight-turnaround' type of ability. Along with that comes a much higher degree of inconsistency in fighting prowess. With my 2H Rage, I know exactly what they're going to do. With tanks, the same. With theatrics? I have no clue how their fights will turn out because of all the "disruptive" potential it has that might trigger...and might not. I actually see this as a weakness of the theatrics tree because they have a much harder time achieving the sort of consistency required to place atop the rankings after a month-long season.

If something better than knockout can be found, I'd be fine with that. But I'm not of the opinion that it is overpowered or that the theatrics skill tree is stronger than the other skill trees. I consider theatrics the hardest specialty to run atm because you can't win just with a good prospect and design - you need a finely tuned gear strategy too or you won't be consistent at all.

[Ogornomus]

No, you get me wrong - that was just the point where I completely lost patience with the skill. I had it on the said gladiator for months, before that I had it on another one for half an year. I've written a lot about Iron Jaw and how "nice" it is but, again, try it yourself.

I have 4 gladiators level 45+ and I haven't noticed any increase of getting K.O.-d at higher levels.
I don't even remember when was my gladiator last knocked out by a theatric.
Still I will try Iron Jaw on Black Degron as he struggels with stunns (doesn't get stunned often, but it also loses him the fight and is more frequent). I guess he has enough offence now and I can drop Called Shot :)

[Team Kaos]

It's not just the Knockout skill in the theatrics skill tree that dramatically turns a fight - Surprise Ending does that too. How many times has my 2H Rage had the fight easily in hand only to have a final rampage thrown back in his face. I've always wondered how it makes any sense that a Theatrics could throw back a Rampage for 2500+ damage when they are not capable of doing anywhere near that kind of damage themselves.

I think that is kinda the reason for such Theatrics skills, KO and Surprise Ending. A 2H Rage can end a fight on 2 or 3 swings..sometimes even just once well placed Rampage. A Theatrics needs many many hits along with being an uber Agility running build to out hit a 2H before being buried, Surprise Ending has a chance to turn a match as much as Rampage does. One is a devastating offensive skill, the other uses the opponents offense skill as a weapon against him. Surprise Ending is only as good as the result it reversed. I have seen a whole lot of SE reverse the 100 point glancing blow only to be buried by the 1200 pt Rampage that comes right after.
So in that result, Rampage was worth a whole lot more than Surprise Ending.
Yes, KO happens on the first couple hits once in a while but it also occurs near the end alot when the fight is pretty much over anyway.

And to just throw another tidbit in the arena. Lords Fury a Theatrics just got KO'd 3 times in a row by Rage's. Also, not every KO by a Theatrics is specifically due to the KO skill. Sometimes glads just KO the opponent cause they got a good roll.

[Kreegan]

But the whole difference is in how these skills achieve their results, isn't it? In the last fight between Ahhnold and Venom Demon, Ahhnold dropped 3k Rampage with his first hit, reducing Venom Demon to some 15% health. And ultimately lost. Would that happen with KO?

Just to be clear, I had KO fighters in the past and I know very well that they don't score KOs in every fight, not even in every three fights. The problem with the skill is not in how often it triggers but what it does when it triggers. There is a imbalance between actual efficiency of the skill overall - which isn't anything exceptional and from that point of view the skill is OK - and the manner in which it helps you score wins - which just cancels the fight because of a "lucky" dice roll, leaving no chance for counter.

[Flash]

the example with my rage is not the best. Venom Demon won because the second strike from Ahhnold was blocked, with a ability which depends on luck.

the 3k rampage could be enough to end the fight, if the enforcer decides so. a decision which depends also on luck.

[Flash]

but now that you mention it the rampage from ahhnold should deal 3010 damage, but venom demon lose only 3009 health.


The crowd jumps up to their feet at the site of the gladiators entering the arena!
R O U N D 1
>> AHHNOLD SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
>> VENOM DEMON SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
AHHNOLD closes on VENOM DEMON and tries to chop his adversary.
AHHNOLD launches a daemonic attack with reckless abandon! (-Rampage-)
AHHNOLD lands a strike on VENOM DEMON's ribs creating magnificent injuries! (+3010 Damage)

Resisted Can Not Defend Effect!
VENOM DEMON appears very concerned with his physical state!!!
AHHNOLD looks at the crowd as he flashes around the battle field.
AHHNOLD nearly hits himself as he strikes.
Insanity fills AHHNOLD's gaze! (-Adrenaline Rush-)
AHHNOLD's weapon astonishingly bounces off the very air in front of VENOM DEMON! (-Block-)
VENOM DEMON's armour protects him!
VENOM DEMON hurtles right at his enemy.
VENOM DEMON overtakes AHHNOLD and looks to carve into him.
VENOM DEMON
AHHNOLD
474/3483
474/3483
925/3491
925/3491
211/222
211/222
236/251
236/251

VENOM DEMON aims for AHHNOLD's weapon arm.
VENOM DEMON launches a daemonic attack with reckless abandon! (-Rampage-)
Herculean slash to AHHNOLD's arm leaves it limp and mangled! (+2567 Damage)

AHHNOLD curses as the attack knocks his weapon to the ground!
AHHNOLD has seen better days!!
AHHNOLD quickly looks about and picks up a KRIS from off the ground!
VENOM DEMON darts madly to and fro.
VENOM DEMON's ANCIENT FLAMBERGE OF THE BLOOD GODS hurls toward AHHNOLD.
A mad frenzy engulfs VENOM DEMON as he rushes toward his victim! (-Adrenaline Rush-)
Cruel strike to the side removes most of AHHNOLD's liver...don't worry, it'll grow back! (+875 Damage)

AHHNOLD drops his weapon as the pain from the hit streaks through his body!
AHHNOLD appears very concerned with his physical state!!!
AHHNOLD falls to the ground with tears in his eyes and begs the mighty VENOM DEMON to spare his impotent life!
The Enforcer gives the thumbs up!
The fight lasted 5 seconds!

[Flash]

i don´t know why this happens, maybe someone know why this is so.

[Team Kaos]

i don´t know why this happens, maybe someone know why this is so.

Indeed, a first shot 3000+ Rampage is usually enough to drop a high percentage of glads.

I believe the difference in hit points issued and received 3010/3009 is because parts of the game is based on fractions of points, so once in a while numbers get rounded down or up. I believe Nate mentioned this in the past about a similar case if i remember correctly and my mind has not completely gone mush in my old age.

[Kreegan]

The point is - Rampage triggers, the fight doesn't end because Venom Demon refuses to give up, then Block triggers, then Venom Demon strikes back and wins. So even when a fighter suffers monstrous hits right from the start, he/she can still emerge victorious. KO doesn't give you any chances if it triggers.

[Flash]

yes knockout ends a fight instantly, but a good placed rampage do often so, too. i agree knockout is the fastest way to end a fight, but it´s also very rare. but if you can´t knockout your enemy, you fought a match without one skill. knockout is a strong skill which increase your chance to win a fight instantly and it can only happen once in a fight. the ability to turn the fight fast and drastic is the way theatrics gladiator fight.
other skills like rampage are not created to win a fight instantly. this skill is created to beat your enemy down to 0. the result of the skill is not as drastic as k.o. , but you see this skill more often.

i thought about k.o. and i believe there is a way to prevent a knockout, but it is only a theory.

we know the skill surprise ending give you abilities from your enemy for one hit, like armor penetration. armor penetration and k.o. have the same conditions to trigger. the probabilities are not the same, but in both cases it depends on percentage.
i believe you can prevent a k.o. with surprise ending and k.o. your enemy instead. i know it is hard to prove and this is only useful for theatrics gladiator and you need a lot of luck, but it would be a way to prevent k.o..

[Kreegan]

Arkal has knocked out multiple opponents with Surprise Ending so this works. Then again, he doesn't have problems with KOs because he usually ends the fight against such opponents in 4-5 swings, rarely giving them chance to strike more than 1-2 times. The situation with my slow gladiators is completely different - give the Theatrics several rounds and he'll almost certainly score a KO. Toros had Iron Jaw at 10 a few weeks ago and got knocked out in nearly every fight against opponents who have the skill and managed to stay on their feet for more than 4-5 rounds - and I specifically took that poor excuse for protection because the build as I see it is supposed to rely on longer fight. Frankly I'm content with KO staying in the game if Iron Jaw starts doing what it is supposed to do much better - at least there will be some real counter to it.

[Flash]

what do you expect when you don´t fight as defensive as it is possible. the problem of k.o. is not the skill, but the number of hits your enemy can land on you. the more hits the more chances to k.o. you, it´s easy. and if you want to increase the skill get more strength, stamina or size.

[Kreegan]

The defensive fighting is not the problem, I think some 30-40% deflections + frequent Create Distance + occasional parries is quite defensive. And I'm taking Iron Jaw to prevent KOs on successful hits to the head, why would I need it otherwise? Would you take a medicine for something to which you have natural immunity?

[Flash]

well obviously it´s not enough if you still get knocked out and i don´t mean your strategy. wars with a shield have not that much problems with k.o. . maybe you try to run thornwall with a shield and what do you mean with natural immunity? there is no immunity to get knocked out. in best case you can improve your resistance. even iron jaw gives NO immunity, but it helps you to resist k.o. . if you want a better resistance increase the stats which are needed for iron jaw.

You need only 2 stats for k.o. strength and agility. for never say die you need also 2 strength and stamina. you have sure noticed that you can improve the effectiveness of skills by improving your stats.
mad queen my theatrics with k.o. right now has 161 strength and 286 agility. the number of both stats added is 447. i tell you this to give you something to compare with.

[weaw]

what do you expect when you don´t fight as defensive as it is possible. Just yesterday my defensive theatrics got 2 of 2 KO from one of Team Kaos. Defending the head and using the parry style...
I thinks, the KO happens more often now for some reasons. But i think also, Nate had already heard our thoughts about KO. And I see no reasons to repeat it again...

[Kreegan]

well obviously it´s not enough if you still get knocked out and i don´t mean your strategy. wars with a shield have not that much problems with k.o. . maybe you try to run thornwall with a shield and what do you mean with natural immunity? there is no immunity to get knocked out. in best case you can improve your resistance. even iron jaw gives NO immunity, but it helps you to resist k.o. . if you want a better resistance increase the stats which are needed for iron jaw.

You need only 2 stats for k.o. strength and agility. for never say die you need also 2 strength and stamina. you have sure noticed that you can improve the effectiveness of skills by improving your stats.
mad queen my theatrics with k.o. right now has 161 strength and 286 agility. the number of both stats added is 447. i tell you this to give you something to compare with.I don't want to turn neither Thornwall, nor Toros into generic tanks, I think we have more than enough of them in Blood Gods. As for the stats - yes, increasing them should improve the skill but not greatly. Take the activated skills for instance. Sotc had several super-buffed (probably all achievement slots used) HoL fighters who would trigger Adrenaline Rush at around 70%. Dane has the same skill on Thunder Lips who is pre-HoL gladiator, with poor basic stats, at 58%. So you get less than 25% additional power from far better attribute stats. If the logic of the passive skills is the same, I don't expect to get Iron Jaw resist many more KO attempts even if I maximize all the needed stats. Actually the skill should provide sufficient protection even on wimps, the sole purpose of its existence is to reduce the amount of stuns - which is a situational critical hit to which every gladiator has basic resistance - and KOs, which is single Theatrics skill, not counting random KOs. In all other scenarios this skill does nothing so at the very least it should do its niche thing decently.