Initiative Woes

[Apoca1ypse]

So, I've been trying to get Ahhnold more competitive this season, and after loading up on achievements, his current stats are:

218-96-126-114-97-119-171
Speed 1 weapon

Results have not been very positive (yes, i know 30 fights per race isnt a big sample range, but trends are still visible) and this is a bit of a grumble i suppose.

I started off as a Dunder (he's been that for a while) and while he smashed apart a bunch of builds, he'd lose to just about every speed setup, often losing without a swing. Power rage builds often did the same thing. I notice that Sly Stallone often demolishes 2H glads in the arena before they get to swing. It seems silly to do so with a speed 1.45 weapon and equal agility to opponents (such as supersonic hate)

I tried out Elaar to try and lose some of the initiative penalty, but still had the same problem. I would sometimes get a swing in, but not often. I cant say I noticed any reduction in crit effects either.

Ok, cool. lets try Human and maybe the extra health will help him live a little longer. nope. In fact I had the worst results on this.

Fine, Sniveler it is. Bit of initiative on war glads, bit of a moot point, but how about ragers? nope. still losing to power rage dunders with lower agility w/o swinging. still no hope vs speed builds.

Basically, My gripe is thus: 2H seems to just flounder currently because it often cant get a swing in. even when switching to sniveler to try and negate the initiative penalty to 2H weapons, they rarely swing, and I feel as if the initiative boost just is too low, or the penalty of 2H weapons is too great.

I know there are initiative rolls and such, but it seems silly that a sniveler with higher stats across the board still doesnt get a swing in vs a dunder with a speed 1.65 and speed 1.45 mace. Similar stuff happens against mace weilding dunder theatrics, which is annoying as hell, but they atleast have Counter Attack for me to attribute theatrics voodoo too. At least when my opponent is using a pair of epees or daggers i can agree with not getting a swing in.


Anyway, I may just have to swap my last remaining 2H glad to be DW like all the others. It feels dirty to think that though :(

[Team Kaos]

Which is more annoying? not getting a shot in against DW Rage ...or watching a DW Rage land a Rampage nearly as hard as a 1H Rampage...or a Theatrics with a 1.45 hammer land near 500 bombs one after the other (Sbjctthrtyfive)

[Sotc]

I find DW to be more consistent than 2Hers; a missed attack or anything that cuts your number of attacks (hamstring, disarmed, getting knocked down, etc) is just too punishing. I recently swapped my war from 2H to DW because of this reason (come join the Dark Side! :P).

I don't understand initiative either, I figure there must be some dice roll component to it since I've been outjumped by glads with far less agil/pres.

[Dainoji]

I've long suspected the length of a weapon factors into initiative which is why sometimes your slow 2H or Pole Arm glad get the first attack but I have no actual evidence to support this other than a hunch.

[Kreegan]

Each weapon type affects the initiative according to my observations and 2H weapons will make your gladiator always act after even exactly the same build with exactly the same stats but with faster weapons.
On the other hand, the Dunders and the Trugs have quite a negligible initiative penalty at the moment so if you don't arm them with a 2H weapon, they may still act before or soon after the other races.
In the end however 2H weapons remain pretty effective. After the Rages finally discovered that they have an attack type called "Kill Shot", there isn't a single tank War (with a shield) who can hope to defeat a decent 2H Rage, those defense-stacking Theatrics which are currently swarming the arena don't fare well at all vs. 2H gladiators (2H weapons are also much harder to parry) and even a speed Rage can be dropped by some 1.5-2k Rampage.

[Apoca1ypse]

Kaos, the big bombs from DW rage is a little silly but not that bad imo (granted, most of my guys are in light armor so they're always big hits) but other classes still land similarly big hits is a bit annoying (mace weilding CA theatrics are one) but that wasnt the point of this thread.

SOTC: I agree, there is something funny about initiative, and 2H seems to be bad unless you can survive long enough to swing. The Returned (current fight engine) and Eruption (old fight engine) were both amazingly successful 2H wars because they could tank damage for long enough to start throwing big bombs, and survive to keep throwing them. 2H rage has not had that success. Ahhnold enjoyed 2 weeks of hot potato on the #1 spot but that's been as glorious as 2H rage has ever been. Not knowing the mechanics of the fight engine for determining initiative, swing rate, damage etc makes it hard to make a suggestion on how to make 2H rage better, but something related to 2H weapons interacting with berserk perhaps? Tweeking zerk seems tricky because there is no need to boost DW rage yet IMO. I am actually pretty close to retraining Ahhnold to DW. It certainly made Cainedesoulis a more terrifying gladiator with the old fight engine when he made the change.

Dain: I dont think weapon length is factored. weight, speed, type and subtype are though.

[Apoca1ypse]

TBH I cant wait till Bruce Willis reaches Blood Gods. At least with him I'll be feeling like I'm flying the 2H flag successfully, assuming he performs like his inspiration (The Returned)

Note: This optimism comes from realising I was using bash by accident for the past month. As soon as I changed him to slash, he won ~30 fights in a row :)

[Alba Kebab]

*Ahem* Attack power also factors into initiative, if you are facing an opponent doled up on more AP achievements than you, he will get better initiative rolls.

Also on the damage comparison, the speed difference does affect your accuracy which in turn affects your damage. A speed glad can almost always be expected to hit a slower 2h glad with close to 100% accuracy unleashing max damage potential, a 2h glad playing catch-up on speed is never going to hit a speed glad as accurately, and it's difficult to set off the full damage potential of the bigger 2h weapon if you can't land an accurate blow.

I know weapon type and manoeuvrability is considered in some things, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more unwieldy weapons such as ball-n-chain and flails do have a low initiative penalty associated with them.
On weapon reach, come to think of it, as long as it's not against a speedster, my pole arms do tend to land the first hit more often despite being slower throughout battle. I guess that's probably true.

[Apoca1ypse]

*Ahem* Attack power also factors into initiative, if you are facing an opponent doled up on more AP achievements than you, he will get better initiative rolls.

Also on the damage comparison, the speed difference does affect your accuracy which in turn affects your damage. A speed glad can almost always be expected to hit a slower 2h glad with close to 100% accuracy unleashing max damage potential, a 2h glad playing catch-up on speed is never going to hit a speed glad as accurately, and it's difficult to set off the full damage potential of the bigger 2h weapon if you can't land an accurate blow.

I know weapon type and manoeuvrability is considered in some things, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more unwieldy weapons such as ball-n-chain and flails do have a low initiative penalty associated with them.
On weapon reach, come to think of it, as long as it's not against a speedster, my pole arms do tend to land the first hit more often despite being slower throughout battle. I guess that's probably true.

I'm not talking about swing accuracy at all. i'm talking about swing rate and initiative.

I forgot attack power in my list but when things have seen really whack i've been checking glads to see their stats (cos of the now vague "godly" status) and many have no bonus to attack power. I know it means poopy dice rolls, but surely there's somethign I can do to make it feel like i have more control of what I do or at least give myself a wider window for rolls to be in my favour? Right now it really feels like there isnt.

[Alba Kebab]

Bonus to attack power can't be seen when scoping glads can you? :confused: I thought all you see is their skills page, which includes boosted stats from equipment and achievements, but not if they have any + attack power bonuses...
It's been a while since I lasted needed a spy report, so I dunno how it works any more...

[Dainoji]

You see pretty much everything except a gladiator's strategy when you scout them.