Current State of Primus

[Cynaidh]

So I was talking to Prinny about this the other day and decided to do a hard count to see how the specialties broke down in Primus (yup too many days off work).

1) There are currently 114 glads in Primus.

Total Glads:
Rage: 38 (33%)
Warrior: 48 (42%)
Theatrics: 28 (25%)

In the top 25:
Rage: 5 (20%)
Warrior: 12 (48%)
Theatrics: 8 (32%)

In the top 50:
Rage: 13 (26%)
Warrior: 24 (48%)
Theatrics: 13 (26%)

In the top 75:
Rage: 22 (29%)
Warrior: 34 (46%)
Theatrics: 19 (25%)

In the top 100:
Rage: 33 (33%)
Warrior: 44 (44%)
Theatrics: 23 (23%)


I found this interesting. By pure numbers in Primus: Warrior>Rage>Theatrics, but when looking at the top 25 the theatrics that are in Primus are doing quite well and this changes to: Warrior>Theatrics>Rage by gladiator count. Its clear to see that Warriors are dominating at this time with almost half of the top 25 and top 50 being warriors.

2) The other measure i believe we can hold Primus gladiators to is blood game wins:

Blood Game wins:
Rage: 1 (7%)
Warrior: 10 (71%)
Theatrics: 3 (21%)

Again what we saw in the top 25 held true again with: Warrior>Theatrics>Rage

3) My observations on this: I was quite surprised there where this many rages in Primus, it is a bit sad that only ruffly 30% of the total rages are in the top 50 though. Also i was surprised that there where less theatrics then any other specialty in Primus, but they have a strong showing in the top 50, almost 47% of all theatrics in Primus are in the top 50. And its not really surprising to me but warriors are just dominant in the top 50, half of the warriors in Primus are in the top 50 (24 of 48 total). Looking at all the above: gladiator counts, blood game winners, and percentage of each specialty in the top 50 i would put it the power rankings in Primus at Warrior>Theatrics>>Rage

4) How will the upcoming skill/game engine change this? With warriors going so defensive i have to wonder if they will stay so popular/strong... Theatrics are becoming very interesting picking up some of the key warrior skills (hamstring and the old war cry) and I have to wonder if they will become much more popular as a result... Rages have picked up some nice defensive skills which they needed and perhaps the best Tier 5 skill out of all of them (on paper anyways).

What does everyone else think? Will the skill/game engine changes make a large change in the "End Game" as we know it?

[Prinny]

Told ya there were quite a few rages out there cyn :P
You will have to note though that on those bloodgames wins over half of them came from 2 wars being Laharl and Zeroeleven.
So you should make an added list of diversity between the glads that won them aswell to get a better view on it ;)

[Narol]

As the most successful theatrics trainer so far with Siam and Slim Tailor, I have to say that currently Theatrics is the weakest school (but also the funniest imho) and I really hope the incoming changes will fix that !

Anyway, new skill tree + new fight engine = totally new game !

Everything is gonna be different and most old tricks won't work anymore, we are gonna have to relearn the game and it will be an exciting challenge.

Btw, it would be an ideal timing to suppress jimmy's scouting to avoid that people simply clone each others again... Please please Nate, just do it !!

[crow]

I have to say that currently Theatrics is the weakest school (but also the funniest imho) and I really hope the incoming changes will fix that !



I actually disagree with this statement. The game is fairly balanced right now. I think the issue at the top is the fact that most of top trainers employ mostly theatrics or war glads. The is just not as many rages in the primus. and the ones that are in the primus have a tough time getting by the wall of theatrics that loom in the 11-50 ranks. so that keep the rages away from the wars that have advantages generally over the theatrics.

As Dain has quoted many of times that the game uses a very soft version of rock/paper/scissors. in this case it is War/theatrics/rage/war. but of course great build in any class are tough to beat. especially when the build has a very good strategy to go along with it.

[oedi]

i agree crow, balance is pretty good, most of the disparity is from the top managers favor different specialities.

[Team Kaos]

I think I have a bit of experience in running Theatrics and War's that I gotta jump in on this.

The game play is fairly balanced and indeed the rock, paper, scissors theory is pretty accurate to a point. However, it is a pretty rare bird, and there are just a few that exist, A gladiator staying entirely within their own skill tree. Pretty much every glad has crossed over to pick up specific skills to stay competitive and/or gain advantage.
I think it is fair to say the most crossed over skill tree is that of the Rage. Whether it is a Theatrics or War, nearly every top glad is running with at least 1 or 2 Rage skills, some more. You don't see many rages dabbling in Theatrics skills, maybe a few with sig move or iron jaw but not many.
Same with Wars, not many with Theatrics skills.

Rages have a difficult time with Theatrics pretty much due to the counter attack ability. Although the update will all but eliminate that advantage against 2 handed swingers, and in my belief put a Theatrics in real danger against the ground breaking strength of a Rage if he cannot
run with a string of hits before the dreaded 800 pt blast lands followed by the uber Last Stand that enhances nearly eveything at the same time.

Due that nearly all glads have crossed over skills from each tree, its difficult to truly say what is the better glad style. But I think it is safe to say, that in order to be among the elite, it is almost a given to that one must have a few skills within the rage tree. Last Stand is utterly ridiculous in advantage and championed by most top glads.

I don't think Theatrics is the weakest, it surely is the most difficult being that a true full blood Theatrics is no where to be seen. Are there any in fact?
Rage, one can simply skill out within it's own tree, and a War can go either way and be dominant. Whether it stays within its own tree or dabbles in others. War skills are pretty tough on there own.

I won't say Rage is dominant, because they certainly are not, and a well built Theatrics can take out almost any Rage the majority of the time, BUT...again, they more then likely will not be pure Theatrics..but hybrids.


Also to add in my 2 cents more...waaay back at the beginning of Pit history, I had mentioned that scouting reports should not reveal skill builds, but rather overview and Fight Strategy. This way it is much more difficult for copycat builds...and a sucky build running the same strats will still likely suck. But a copycat build running slightly different strats will likely rate pretty close since they will be fighting glads with different strats anyway.

[Cynaidh]

Yup i think we are all hoping Nate gives us a way to hide our builds with this update, I am still in favor of it being a stable membership for a "counter-agent" who would block spying attempts on your stable.

I also think we all agree with you on Last Stand Kaos, any glad is made better by giving them the skill, i believe 021 was a good example of that if i remember correctly. I think he didn't have it for quite awhile and was in the top 10 regularly, but then after getting it was sitting in the top spot for quite awhile. Its also why Last Stand has been totally removed in this game update. I honestly have no idea how two handed rage are going to work after loosing it, i know two handed weapons are going to faster, and rounds shorter so will have to see, and i still dont know if i will risk one of my glads respec's to make one of them into a two handed user or not (all 5 of my primus rages are currently duel wield).

I still wonder if hybrids will be the way to go with this change.... those tier 5 skills look really really nice.

[Prinny]

Last Stand is certainly a strong skill but not neccesary to take the Undisputed Primus Champion title. I showed that with Belca Noctircus. None of my HOL glads have Last Stand with the exeption of Mr Champloo since he's a rage. Than again I don't see a Non-Hol glad pulling this off and with the skilltree change we will just need to see what works and what doesn't who knows maybe some other stable masters will stand up and use this change to take place among those top spots ;D

The new skilltree gives so many new builts and I have the believe that whichever built you choose aslong as you put the emphasis on your chosen skills to pull out the most you can outof them it will work.
Ofcourse doing this means chosing the right equipment, race and strategy to use around your skillbuilt and will require some knowledge about the game mechanics aswell as your opponents.

Ive pulled a rather unorthodox built with Mr Champloo that not many are using and built around that which got me to frequently visit the top 25 with him.

[Cynaidh]

Last Stand is certainly a strong skill but not neccesary to take the Undisputed Primus Champion title. I showed that with Belca Noctircus.

Not disagreeing with you but what i meant is if you took Belca and put last stand on him, he would be better. Its one of the few skills that makes any glad better doesn't matter if they are a rage, warrior, or a theatric. That is why i think it got removed, it was one of the few skills like that in the game like that, actually most of the skills that where like that have been removed or changed: sig move stun was another and it also was removed, brute force is another and it got moved up a tier... which makes no difference to rages but now if a theatrics or a warrior wants 10 points in it they can't have their tier 5 skill (you can get 9 points in it and have your tier 5 skill by using trophies but not 10 points due to us not being able to violate pre-req's with trophies anymore)

[Kreegan]

I honestly have no idea how two handed rage are going to work after loosing itWith Wars losing their initiative boost and Theatrics their weird Counter Attack pattern, I don't think there will be a problem for the 2H Rages to stand their ground. In fact, with faster 2H weapons, these Snivler Rages will become even greater pests.

[Prinny]

Oh don't get me wrong Cyn, I was just stating that while Last Stand is strong it is not necessary, Certainly with Last Stand instead of his Shield skill Belca would rock especially since he would be making use of 100 skills instead of the 90 he uses now ;)

[Team Kaos]

With Wars losing their initiative boost and Theatrics their weird Counter Attack pattern, I don't think there will be a problem for the 2H Rages to stand their ground. In fact, with faster 2H weapons, these Snivler Rages will become even greater pests.\

True, it seems like an enhancement for them by swinging more often, but they will still need to deal with an enhanced Knockout.

Knockout
Strength, Agility
Passive
Requires Theatrics specialization.
Requires 55 trains in Theatrics skills.
Every crowd loves a knockout and every hit your gladiator delivers to their opponent's head has a chance to do just that. In addition opponents wearing no helm or a lightly armoured helm are at risk of being dazed by each hit to the head leaving them unable to attack until they get their bearings again.

In other words, Aimed Blow plays an even bigger role for a Knockout skilled Theatrics.

My money is on Wars coming out ahead though.

[Alba Kebab]

Pure theatrics do exist, I believe Oedi still has a few. I started the game with pure theatrics(hence my theatrics avatar) the fast parry/counter/bleed was very fun to run and I plan on going back to theatrics for my next batch.
I'm just waiting for the new skills to come in for some real fight tests so I can better plan everything, plus my current eligible retirees haven't run out of steam yet so I'm in no hurry to retire them.

[Rhyss]

Interesting statistics... I wonder... would there be a way to break it down by the type of Weapon used as well? I made an early choice to go with dual use of Mace & Axe, but I seem to get destroyed by both Rage and War who use two-handed weapons.

[Lunarion199]

The new skill tree seems much better in terms of fight strategies than the current one. Every specialty has got both offensive and defensive skills to balance the glads the way we want. By the way last stand has not gone; it has been shifted to the wars. 'Never Say Die' is a partial but deadly combination of today's Last Stand, Battle Prowess and Combat Instincts!

Never Say Die
Strength, Stamina
Activated (Defensive)
Requires War specialization.
Requires 30 trains in War skills.
Soldiers of the Great Realm never lose heart regardless of how bad the situation might be. If they should ever find themselves with less than half their health and losing the battle, they will fall back on their legendary discipline and be rewarded with increased health to continue fighting and the ability to reduce the debilitating effects of low heath and endurance!

[Prinny]

Lunarion aslong as it doesn't give the initiative boost it doesn't count as Last Stand, Battle Prowess and Combat Instincts were so useless they didn't even deserve to be called skills :)

[Lunarion199]

As the health and stamina drops the attacks slow down (battle descriptions indicate it very promptly in yellow); and the damage done and the ctitical hits reduce. As such, battle prowess and combat instincts are two of the best passive skills the wars could have. It's just that they come into play silently and nobody ever directly realizes that.

Also, the skill tree description of last stand reads: "When your gladiator is on the verge of losing he goes into berserking rage giving him a boost to health and endurance allowing him to fight longer than normal..." It nowhere mentions anything about a boost to initiative. And a berserk glad hits more often and hits hard but burns stamina at alarming rate. Thus I suppose a glad on last stand will start making more and stronger attacks compared to his now relatively tired opponent, which appears to us as a boost to initiative :)

So the wars with Never Say Die are going to be very hard to be taken down by tired out rages I suppose. Although the game still seems balanced, I wouldn't wonder if some well-built wars dominate the Primus bracket once again..

[Kreegan]

Man, if a gladiator who is near exhaustion and has one spit of blood left in his veins manages to score red criticals with pretty much the same power as if he's fresh and without a scratch, then the penalty in question is not worth mentioning. And this happens all the time. Simple as that. So yes, in essence you currently have two totally useless skills in the War tree.
On the other hand, Nate mentioned that the said penalty will play a bigger role after the update.

[Prinny]

That "berserking rage" could indicate a boost to initiative ;)
We wont know if its the same as Last Stand untill it gets released so no use to worry about it.

On note of those 2 skills I call bullshit, ive had them for quite some time on Laharl and there was barely any difference when I took those 20 poins to do something usefull with them. No loss of attacks, no real lesser damage nothing.