Is Primus binding up like a rock hard turd?

[sevenseas]

I have no "suggestion" just a suggestive question, is it just me or is there too many really good glads crammed in with about 30 awesome glads, and 15 or so demonic glads, with almost every glad having the potential to take the top spot, except... maybe we have found the pinnacle of the game with the 2H trug warriors, i don't know. It seems like right now this build is unstoppable...and almost everyone has one they're trying to build, which...seems to me might bind primus up like a turd. Weeell,.. we do have the new skill tree coming soon. Ok...I'm going back to bed:o

[Kreegan]

Trugs aren't the problem, they are beatable as much as the rest of the races - it's the total lack of imagination in Primus lately. 3 out of 4 gladiators (or maybe even more) are trained for Last Stand and probably half of them are armed with fast axes/maces (most of the other half is with 2H weapons). It's like fighting different levels of the same gladiator - usually measured by how much achievements are used on him - over and over again and it's getting boring. From what I see the HoL replacements are just doped up versions of the same template so I'm not expecting this trend to change any time soon.

[Cynaidh]

Honestly, nothing is going to change till we get the new skill trees. The managers at the top all know what is over power and what works right now.

When sig move becomes theatrics only, the dozens of rages and warriors that have sig move stun will have to make a change cause their main attack will be gone. Athleticism is becoming battle hardened and warrior only, this means the theatrics that have it will now be more weak vs defensive builds and will have to make adjustments. Some new skills are available to every class that where not before like GV so perhaps we will see Rage bleed builds but those points to get it will have to come from somewhere.

Problem is we haven't had an update from Nate in four months on the skill tree update and its beginning to feel like we aren't going to see this change this year unfortunately... I am sure the team is working their butts off on conquests which being a major expansion of the game has to be time consuming. I can understand wanting to get conquests out as it will open up Legendaries to all of us and not just 1 per month to the blood games winner which is just a matter of luck to win.

I know i am still looking forward to seeing the next tier of skills and seeing if last stand got made rage only or moved higher in the tree, that would be a HUGE difference in probably 80% of the theatric and warrior Primus builds. So eventually it will change some we just have to wait to see when it will happen.

[Cynaidh]

Those 2H Trug warriors are beatable, you just need a high strength duel mace wielding non-Snivler rage to take them on.... but there just isn't that many of those in primus right now.

The reason i say that is what you need is because the basic dynamic for balance is still there of Rage > Warrior > Theatrics > Rage. Its just that the lines between Rage and Warrior have been very blurred by the fact that warriors can go into the rage tree and get skills like Barreling attack, Brute Force, and most importantly Last Stand. Duel mace is need because of create distance, enough said on that every one knows why. Snivelers just don't work because of Last Stand on a 2H warrior is auto death to a low hit point rage when it fires off, verse these warriors a rage has to have the raw hit points to ride out that double or triple attack that happens when when the last stand fires off on the warrior. Add in the trug race with high stamina and you have warriors with over 2500 hit points, with last stand that is really over 3200 hit effective points that you have to chew threw to take them down. Throwing signature move stun on them just adds insult to injury as they can now make you stop attacking for 1-2 rounds which just adds even more effect hit points to them (a 1 round stun vs a rage easily is the same as having an additional 1000 hit points, so if a 2 round stun goes off I'd say its the same as having 5200 effective hit points on these monsters). So you either have to be able to do a massive amount of damage (high strength duel mace) or run them out of endurance all while having enough health to ride out their attacks. Problem with trying to run them out of endurance is that they all have athleticism and some also have feint. This means they don't miss often and they blow right threw attempts to parry or block their attacks... so defensive gladiators just get hammered.

So if i was to build a glad just to beat these guys i would want a rage with great str/stam/size with good agil/pres.

The glad i am specifically building for this a HOL Slave is Belwraith with stats: str 86 int 76 agil 82 stam 77 size 82 pres 86 chi 70

He will be replacing Belgarad and will wear Belgarad's gear soon as he hits 50 and change over to being a trug, once he is maxed out and is an Olympian using 6 achievements he will be Str 181 int 86 agil 142, stam 107, size 92, pres 148, chi 103 i am thinking that will be about 2300 hit points of warrior smashing fury. I look forward to that day. :)

So this got kinda long but just wanted to point out there is a counter to the 2H warrior.... there just isnt many of them in primus for some reason.

[Prinny]

Im not even impressed by the Trug race to be honest, ive tried it on Shikii and Laharl before but I just couldn't get myself to like the few extra health they got for it so I went with Dunder and Spites instead. Hell Shikii is a 2H dunder with 2150 hit points that frequently makes hits over 1k damage especially against rages. Besides that he gets 3 attacks from Last Stand if he hasn't attacked that round yet which all usually count for 500+ damage a hit.

Ive made my 3 HoL glads with the new skill tree in mind although I have been thinking of getting Last Stand on Asatsuo but Im not going to do it, that would be to boring since he would jsut be a buffed up version of Laharl.

The same counts for Yukimaru, he was originally to be a buffed up version of Jinrou and I still want to make him just that since letting other glads run outof Endurance or k-o ing them is hilarious especially when you pull it on a rage.

[Dainoji]

This thread and the "Mister Oedi finally losing his nerves ?" thread make me laugh. Both were practically started at the same time and this one talks of too many glads of equal footing in Primus, and the other thread talks of large differences in gladiator skill in Primus...er...is everyone playing the same game? ;)

This thread however is based on complete nonsense in my opinion. You can't ever have too many gladiators in Primus and who cares if everyone is mostly equal. How is that a bad thing? Take any professional sport league in the world and all the teams are more or less even with any one of them being able to win if the cards fall in their favor. Of course you always have a team or individual who will dominate for a season or two, in some rare cases you might get a longer run but for the most part the championships change hands each season.

In a rare event I'll side with Kreegan, I think the biggest problem is a lack of creativity and that is because managers THINK they have found the best combinations which I don't believe is true at all. Most competitive players of strategy games like to find something that works and then us it ad nauseum . You see this is Magic the Gathering, RTS games, you name it, so I'm not surprised by this. A handful of builds have been unearthed and proven to succeed more than not, so many players choose it because they like a sure thing and like winning more than losing. You'll recall not long ago a certain manager decided to stack Presence on his Rage glad and what happened? The biggest killer in the game was born. Instead of people waiting on a skill tree change maybe they should instead seek out new builds if they are tired of the same ones and feel bored. I'm pretty sure with all the specialty/skills/race/weapons combinations there are a lot of builds out there, likely we've just found the low hanging fruit and maybe some mid level fruit. ;) In an ironic twist for a violent game I'll paraphrase a quote of one of the most famous pacifists in recent memory. "Be the change you wish to see". :)

Chuck Norris and Pharaoh where those changes. Pharaoh was a failed experiment at a 100% defensive glad, but I'm glad I tried and learned a lot. I simply don't have as much time currently to make careful challenges and avoids each day, but have no doubt in my mind if I did Chuck would be in the top 10 and mostly by bleeding the opponent out or exhausting them. Chuck does very well against the majority of builds in the game but there is one particular build that is his Achilles heel and thus makes upward progress tough if done randomly. I'm totally ok with this though. I come from a deep MTG background and loved all the interaction with various decks and no matter how powerful a deck, there was always a counter to it and sometimes the counter was ONLY good against that deck. I enjoyed making those decks because the joy I got from kicking the arrogant prick's ass who ran those decks was worth 10 losses to other decks for every win I got against the uber deck! :) If I got tired of losing too often I focused on the other decks for awhile.

[Cynaidh]

there was always a counter to it

I totally agree that this applies to the Pit of War also, since this post was about 2H warriors being "the pinnacle of the game" in my above post i put what i think the counter build is to them. I really do think they are doing so well due to that build not really being popular, so their counter just is far and few between. I am sure eventually it will balance out IF people decide to run glads that will counter them, either existing builds or coming up with their own.

[Narol]

Currently 5 glads in the Top 15 of Primus are 2H Trug Warriors so I agree with Sevenseas, it's currently the most effective build of the game and they are very hard to beat and counter.

Cynaidh may be right that the build he suggest is the perfect one to counter them, btw I'm curious to know what is Belgarad's win ratio against Toddler & Zeroeleven as he is the only example of this build in the Top 10 of Primus currently : is it just above 50%, closer to 75% or even near 90 % ?

[sevenseas]

awesome...this is what i was hoping to see out of that post...and i for one have NOT tried to build big fat warrior, i'm trying to build a rage or theatrics to beat them (with very little luck). But I just wanted to get people thinking about it because i don't want to fight the same glad from 20 different managers, it would bore me to death. I think by the time i get Bigger Buzz figured out (most of his skills are at 7-8, and he has like 13 or 14 skills learned) he will make a pretty damn good challenge for most glads...i feel like the HOL glads built to mimic 0-11 and Toddler are gonna cramp the game, and i just want to see some diversity not vice-versa.

[Kreegan]

An offensive War or Rage with armour-piercing weapons, Barreling Attack and Last Stand will take out a 2H War most of the time so I don't think you're investigating the right suspect. Moreover, the current top-level Trug Wars seem susceptible to exhaustion if you put, for example, a Battle Hardened War with a Tower Shield and heavily defensive strategy (and eventually defensive achievement if you can afford the trophies) against them - problem is that such a War probably won't fare very well against most Rages but that remains to be seen. I have a Battle Hardened War in Primus myself (probably the only one in the whole bracket) and even though he's fighting with a 2H weapon and has only his gold achievements "armed", he manages to bring some of these Trugs to near-exhaustion. So start experimenting for the Enforcer's sake, even if only to make the game more diversified. It's not like most of you don't already have a few fighters among the top dogs in the arena, it's not necessary to build all of your gladiators with the Primus throne in mind.

[sevenseas]

it's not necessary to build all of your gladiators with the Primus throne in mind.

The throne is all i have eyes for:cool:

[Apoca1ypse]

I think part of why we dont see much innovation in regards to massively different builds is because of the investment costs, specifically time.

Personally, I dont want to make a new glad and have to spend 4 months leveling it up just to see if it will do well. It's too much of a gamble on my time and effort. Add in to that the cost of changing skills/race and it makes it a rather unappealing prospect to me, and (I assume) many other managers.

If at the very least unlearning skills was free, I'd be more willing to try stuff out. As it stands, 110 trophies to totally unlearn a skill sucks balls, especially when you no longer get a trophy a day.

[Cynaidh]

Cynaidh may be right that the build he suggest is the perfect one to counter them, btw I'm curious to know what is Belgarad's win ratio against Toddler & Zeroeleven as he is the only example of this build in the Top 10 of Primus currently : is it just above 50%, closer to 75% or even near 90 % ?

I feel that he has the advantage on them now that i finished tweaking his skills/weapons/stratagies, i had 2 fight tokens so i challenged them both once and won both, i know that's a trivial number of fights, will use some of tomorrows to get a larger test pool.

A lot of it comes down to stuns, if one of us gets a stun in a round that's normally it, that person will win. If there is no stuns then i feel Belgarad has the advantage currently.

[Kreegan]

Having the same build all over the place almost kills the fun of fighting in Primus. Yes, Last Stand is superior to any other skill in the game to the point of being completely imblanced, yes, axes/maces are equalizers against heavy armour and easy to master - so if you want to stick to the cookie-cutter, make one gladiator following that template until the game becomes more balanced. Why spam it all around though?

[sevenseas]

hamstring baby...hamstring. it's a biotch



f at the very least unlearning skills was free, I'd be more willing to try stuff out. As it stands, 110 trophies to totally unlearn a skill sucks balls, especially when you no longer get a trophy a day.


i hear ya on this on...110 is a little steep

[Kreegan]

Hamstring is very good but by no means imbalanced.

[Cynaidh]

Hamstring is very good but by no means imbalanced.

It is one of the stronger skills in the game.

For me the stronger skills are (in no particular order):
Signature move: Stun, Last Stand, Barrelling attack (so undervalued), Created Distance, War Cry, Hamstring, Athleticism, GV, heavy scarring

It's part of what makes 2H warriors so good, they can get more of them the any other style.

[sevenseas]

This Isn't the next post "Is Primus binding up like a rock hard turd?".

That thread is nonsense, pay it no mind.




Danijoji I think you missed the whole point here, i was merely pointing out the fact that we are seeing a repetitive build pattern with these Warriors coming up in Primus, and wanted people to think about that before we see another 2h HOL warrior 0-11 wannabe... diversity in the gene pool AND... yes most of the glads in primus are equal and the only way to break out of that is to be better than the 5 or six people with all of the experience and top glads.

I never come to this forum being rude (it's not too classy, you know), and I might recommend that rudeness be damned by anyone who cares about the game. People aren't gonna want to pay to lose to the top guys AND be insulted by them. :mad:

[sevenseas]

This thread and the "Mister Oedi finally losing his nerves ?" thread make me laugh. Both were practically started at the same time and this one talks of too many glads of equal footing in Primus, and the other thread talks of large differences in gladiator skill in Primus...er...is everyone playing the same game?


I was gonna let this go....but i feel it necessary to respond now:

The top 10 of primus are definitely a cut above the rest....and the bottom 20 thru say 100 are for the most part equal. Yes...we are playing the same game, except i see people trying to copy-cat top glads to win instead of trying something totally their own and risk losing.