Regarding the decreased trophy drop rate

[Kreegan]

I don't think this is a bug any more so I think some discussion is in order.

Since the last update my trophy income has almost completely disappeared. Apart from the 1 trophy for 150 gold per day and the occasional win against the arena challenges (which now gives 1 trophy at most), I'm not getting anything. Killing gladiators by initiating the fight gives me arena tokens, when the opponent is initiating it and gets killed by some of my fighters, I only get extra gold. Since the update I've "missed" winning at least several trophies which would've been added to my budget otherwise.

So, I guess this thing is supposed to balance out the new gold price of the blue items AND to... hm, stimulate the players to buy trophies with cash. Here are the problems I see with this approach:

1. All new players who are not paying for trophies are now effectively locked out of the high levels of Primus and the Blood Games because the pruple items are now almost unaffordable. Alternatively one might save for purple items for... months but without guild memberships his/her gladiator will gain new skill levels very slowly and the repair cost + the injury healing will eventually ruin the stable. Membership + purple items is out of the question, except if you are planning to have a fighter able to challenge the best Primus fighters after... an year after you start playing maybe. Fighting them with green and blue gear is an uphill battle at best, it's difficult enough to fight them with purple, given that they are usually heavily armed with achievements.

2. All fighters possesing some purple gear will be stuck with it for quite some time. I have a very promising gladiator in Primus but he's fighting with level 40 purple weapon (and winning against some of most effective fighters in the game even with it) which is disadvantageous against fully equipped fighters, not to mention the ones with all 6 achievement slots used. I was intending to buy him something better after a few weeks but that will be very difficult now.

3. Due to the above, the current top performers in Primus are essentially subscribed to their status of top performers for quite some time (months, at least), except if some new player paying for trophies pops up. The others may occasionally score some lucky win against a gladiator from top 50 in Primus but it's far more likely that their gladiators will lose - optimistically - 9 out of 10 fights against some of the said monsters.

4. Therefore the game's summit becomes locked for a very long time (I suppose enough to get tired of the game or of losing to far better equipped opponents) for all non-paying players.

I perfectly understand that no amount of enthusiasm can keep a game of such quality free forever and that the devs need some compensation for the time and the efforts that they invest in the product (I've read somewhere that even the programmers need to eat). I'm actually a bit surprised that the game doesn't require a monthly subscription in the first place, it's better than some games developed by huge companies with enormous budgets, so make no mistake, it's an excellent achievement. It's also understandable that a future development of the product - and even maintaining its current state - requires money and a game that is free can't generate them quickly enough as long as it is indeed free. These things I'm perfectly fine with and I'm even willing to donate something in case the devs start a wikipedia-like campaign to gather funds to support the game.
However, the current backdoor approach is a bit... well, sly in a bad way. It's fairly obvious that if the game stays on the current track, it will turn into a "pay-to-win" one where all new "free" players will eventually hit a wall which can't be climbed if they don't start paying. They'll realize it at some point of course but the vast majority of them will just drop instead of start paying and may start spreading anti-advertisements as a consequence.
Anyway, the point is that these "free" players shouldn't be completely robbed from the opportunity to compete with the people who pay for the game - which is currently an ongoing process. If the devs need funds, it might be worth it to request them directly and see what happens (the Internet tends to be generous towards products which stay accessible to all) - if it doesn't help, then the game could be moved into a more payable direction. In my opinion.

[CaineDeSoulis]

Hey there I'm going to try and make a few points aswell and add a little bit of math in just for some good measure. With this update the reduction in trophy's has a few positives and it has a few negatives.

lets start with some math and I'll use my stable as an example.

Currently I've been using auto heal, auto repair and Stable memberships as my only trophy cost.

Auto Heal: 6(cost) / 7(days) = 0.85 T per day
Auto Repair: 6(cost) / 7(days) = 0.85 T per day
Stable Membership: 25(cost) / 14(days) = 1.78 T per day.

Total Cost is 3.48 T per day to maintain this.

so lets break it down into how i was able to maintain and exceed this regularly.

(1 T per day from the bank)
(1 T per day from taverns)

2 kills per day.
The problem is here. I Didnt need to initiate these fights, often I would come back and find I already had +2 trophies. for doing Nothing.

Personally I think it would be better to have fights in which you kill while defending to receive a fight token rather than a gold boost. With fights you initiate and kill being a trophy reward. Kinda figured that the "New Exciting prizes! ^_^" was code for trophies only rarely being awarded :\. I've Already supported a monthly Subscription idea anyway actually lol.

Points 1 and 2 deal a lot with gear but you should really worry about the much much more costly stable upgrades. it's taken nearly 3 months of saving to get to about 1/3 the cost of doctor level 2 and thats under the old system!. Purple Gear is great for a war/theatrics but for rage you really only need the weapon to be purple.

Point 3 is true to an extent but exaggerated. Yes my top dudes will probably always be competitive but i don't have any ambitions to become the next solstice.

Point 4 is kinda odd I dont know if you were here for when Wargh literally tore through the primus wearing greens and a single purple Gladius he was nearly unstoppable for awhile. Find the New hybrid the new combination the new strategy and take advantage of the challenge system and you can find a lot of success in the primus.

The last paragraph is kinda interesting you have to remember for the most part buying trophies is a simple trade off of time versus want. as for free players not having a chance I just dont think thats true at all. I dont think they can run a 5 grape ape stable but they can still compete with the best of them. A Green superspeed Snivler rage for example would tear sedris apart before he could hit them. A Green Duel hammer power rage can beat Tourach. Prey can lose to a Green Sword and shield Theatrics. matchups and builds and stratagys have alot more importance to a free player but them not being able to compete without spending an exorbent amount of money isnt true >.<.

Donation's? I think its on the bank page :P. Please bear in mind the developers are not 2 dudes in someones basement but an actual game company and PitOfWar or atleast the idea of it has been around for atleast 10 years.

This type of game is a very very niche game (Basically you need to be a very Hardcore gamer who not only likes text based old school games but enjoys the premise of gladiator combat) That being said i think a lot of what we are seeing is the beginning of making the pits appeal to a much much larger audience. :)

[Kreegan]

Points 1 and 2 deal a lot with gear but you should really worry about the much much more costly stable upgrades.You don't really need stable upgrades to remain competitive if everything else is fine with your fighters, most of them just add extra convenience. The Undertaker is great but if you keep your fighter in the grave for 24 hours, the effect is the same - so you just wait. The Doctor can save you some money but personally I wouldn't save several months for something that does not guarantee certain results when I can use the same resources to equip my gladiators with much greater efficiency. The Scribe nobody seems to bother with, the Armoury is also useful but with Merchants' Guild membership can be bypassed and the Vault offers greater tactical flexibility (especially for a Master of Arms War, I have one of them) but you can win even without extra weapons. So all these things help, but they are not mandatory and my guys have been doing fine without them for quite some time.

Purple Gear is great for a war/theatrics but for rage you really only need the weapon to be purple.I agree here but that's two classes out of three, surely you don't expect all non-paying players to run all-Rage stables only. :) Wars in particular just can't handle the Primus opposition if their equipment is inferior, I've observer the performance of my own Wars there before and after equipping them with purple and the difference is huge. It's not much different for the Theatrics actually, especially against Wars. Besides, being able to win easily against a certain class with inferior gear shows a balance flaw, i.e. if a green-clad Theatrics can beat a purple-clad Rage, then a purple-clad Theatrics will crush him in almost every battle which is not exactly fun. Some balancing pass is on the way and I guess some of these things will be addressed.

Point 3 is true to an extent but exaggerated. Yes my top dudes will probably always be competitive but i don't have any ambitions to become the next solstice.Me neither, but if I was a new player, I certainly wouldn't like the idea of getting to the end only to realize that I don't stand a chance against anyone there. Think of it as a regular game with a boss battle in the end - you reach the boss after many hours of playing and improving yourself only to get your ass handed to you so many times that at one point you figure out that there are less frustrating ways to spend your free time. Not because you are a poor player but because you can't afford the things necessary to fight the boss.

Point 4 is kinda odd I dont know if you were here for when Wargh literally tore through the primus wearing greens and a single purple Gladius he was nearly unstoppable for awhile. Yup, but that ultimately got fixed. There are still dual-wielding Rages beating the slower fighters without getting a single retaliation but not as many as before and if the game is further balanced, they should disappear completely. In general, I don't think a balance flaw should be used as an argument here as the balance is a subject to change and if the change is for the better, all such exploits should become unavailable.

The last paragraph is kinda interesting you have to remember for the most part buying trophies is a simple trade off of time versus want. as for free players not having a chance I just dont think thats true at all. I dont think they can run a 5 grape ape stable but they can still compete with the best of them. A Green superspeed Snivler rage for example would tear sedris apart before he could hit them. A Green Duel hammer power rage can beat Tourach. Prey can lose to a Green Sword and shield Theatrics. matchups and builds and stratagys have alot more importance to a free player but them not being able to compete without spending an exorbent amount of money isnt trueWell, I just can't agree here. I'm in Primus myself and I can certainly see first hand what's the difference between purple-clad and green-clad gladiators. Apart from the Rages - who indeed need only purple weapon to remain competitive, even though purple armour will boost their stats nicely - the other two classes are very dependant on their equipment. I remember fighting Landis (one of Cynaidh's fighters I think) when she climbed the ladder to Primus while she was armed with green gear only and I would beat her very often. Then one day she switched to full purple and suddenly I couldn't get her health below 50% with none of my under-equipped fighters. Strategy is important but I just don't buy that it can compensate for bad equipment, at least in some 90% of the cases.


Donation's? I think its on the bank page :P. Please bear in mind the developers are not 2 dudes in someones basement but an actual game company and PitOfWar or atleast the idea of it has been around for atleast 10 years.

This type of game is a very very niche game (Basically you need to be a very Hardcore gamer who not only likes text based old school games but enjoys the premise of gladiator combat) That being said i think a lot of what we are seeing is the beginning of making the pits appeal to a much much larger audience. In any case, it wouldn't hurt trying to earn money via different means than making the end game cash-spending dependant.That's their decision of course but if it ultimately turns out that you can't compete in Primus if you don't pay, I myself will stop playing. On the other hand a honest request for funding will probably extract some money from my account.

[Apoca1ypse]

surely you don't expect all non-paying players to run all-Rage stables only. :)

Heathen! My dream WILL be realised! :D






Point 4 is kinda odd I dont know if you were here for when Wargh literally tore through the primus wearing greens and a single purple Gladius he was nearly unstoppable for awhile. Find the New hybrid the new combination the new strategy and take advantage of the challenge system and you can find a lot of success in the primus.

<3 He had less than 60 trained skills too :D


Yup, but that ultimately got fixed. There are still dual-wielding Rages beating the slower fighters without getting a single retaliation but not as many as before and if the game is further balanced, they should disappear completely. In general, I don't think a balance flaw should be used as an argument here as the balance is a subject to change and if the change is for the better, all such exploits should become unavailable.

It's a case of metagame. With 45 different skills and over a thousand permutations of those skills, there are plenty of ways to find a way to beat the popular builds if you are prepared to take the time. Wargh came about at a time when the metagame was favorable to him. As soon as the top players changed their strategies and tweaked their build (I remember Echo and being the first) Wargh no longer scored flawless victories 1 after the other.

Belgarad was another that went against the grain, being the first of the power ragers and dominated for a bit too iirc. in fact he set the trend that has resulted in many top ragers now wielding maces.

One of the big things int his game is that it takes a lot of time before the fruits of your labor on a new build pay off. Wargh was 6-8 months in the making. with the new format, you can do that in about 3. that can be reduced to a day if you spend tokens, but there you are paying for convenience.

Gear matters when you are trying to outdo the other guy in the same build.

Ultimately I see your argument as being about the change to tokens making memberships and items impossible to attain w/o cash investment.

If you look at memberships, well, you are paying for convenience and if it was possible for everyone to get it for nothing, why include it instead of keeping the previous system? It'd be like having a free gym around the corner. it's cool, convenient, exploitable, and the owner doesnt get anything in return except maybe some sales on health food (ie: sweet fuck all considering what is offered) I miss being able to get enough trophies every 14 days to get temple and memberships, but considering I did nothing to earn it, should I really get it? especially for something that is just convenience.

Items, there I can sympathise. to some extent it makes a difference, but that is often when you are trying to outdo someone else with the same build, which therefore has the same good and bad matchups. I agree, it's annoying, however with blue items now being available for gold, you can close that gap a lot. You miss out on a few points of armor and the 3rd stat boost, but often the blue items will boost their 2 stats more than the purple will, so you can still make a min-max build w/o too much disadvantage. Again, there is the option to brew up something designed to destroy the metagame like Wargh and Belgarad.

[Kreegan]

I might be wrong but I think the speed Rages became reasonable after an intervention from the devs, not so much after strategy adjustment - they just stopped being overrly powerful out of a sudden and became just good. The armour penetration of the fastest blades got reduced or something so you could no longer see for example Wargh beating Laharl to death in an uninterrupted sequence of hits in 1 round.
As for the rest - blue items might help a bit but not against fully-trained fighters, some of which use 4-6 achievements all the time among other things - you need at least equally powerful gear against them. I don't deny that you can win once in a while but it will rarely be in a controlled fashion. A lucky knockout here and there, keeping the opponent stunned or on the ground for most of the fight while getting weak or no criticals yourself, etc. but normally the brute force of the purple items + eventually achievements keep you in a clear disadvantage, except where some balance exploit allows for easy victories (Last Stand is one example).

[Apoca1ypse]

I might be wrong but I think the speed Rages became reasonable after an intervention from the devs, not so much after strategy adjustment - they just stopped being overrly powerful out of a sudden and became just good. The armour penetration of the fastest blades got reduced or something so you could no longer see for example Wargh beating Laharl to death in an uninterrupted sequence of hits in 1 round.

Metagame had already shifted and Wargh was going backwards before the balance pass. It's part of why myself and a few others thought that the damage nerf to bastard swords was unnecessary.



As for the rest - blue items might help a bit but not against fully-trained fighters, some of which use 4-6 achievements all the time among other things - you need at least equally powerful gear against them. I don't deny that you can win once in a while but it will rarely be in a controlled fashion. A lucky knockout here and there, keeping the opponent stunned or on the ground for most of the fight while getting weak or no criticals yourself, etc. but normally the brute force of the purple items + eventually achievements keep you in a clear disadvantage, except where some balance exploit allows for easy victories (Last Stand is one example).

You cannot expect people to spend money for no edge at all as convenience only goes so far. Again, blue items now being affordable reduce the preexisting gap substantially. Alternatively the counter to this is to tweak your build a little or be selective with your challenges. The latter is quite possible now with the change to ladder challenge range. Already the stratification of the top end of primus is changing. The top glads are no longer within their protective bubble of glads they can beat up on ad the lower ranked counter builds are now in striking range.

[Dainoji]

Kreegan, do you like to drink beer? How much do you pay for that beer? How about going to the movies? Do you like to go to the theater and watch one? How much do you spend on that? How about a nice sporting event, ever go to one of those? How much do you pay for a ticket? What about a night out with the girlfriend or friends? What do you spend on that?

Where I live a beer costs anywhere from $6-$10 USD for a pint, a movie ticket will run you anywhere from $10-$18, ball game will run you a minimum of $25 and a night out with friends will end up being anywhere from $30-$100+ depending on where you go and what you do. So if you are telling me this game isn't worth a few beers each month then why are you playing? Does it really rank that low for you?

Games are part of your entertainment budget, and if you are willing to buy any of the above items, or ones that I didn't list but you find entertaining, then why not also open up you wallet each month and support a game you obviously enjoy playing. The world does not run on happy thoughts and good feelings, nor does software development and I'm pretty sure artists require cash if you want them to produce art. If you can honestly sit back and say "nope, this game isn't worth my money", then you should just quit now and stop playing because did you know it also costs money for servers to host this game and for the bandwidth that you are using?

Next time you buy a beer, or go out with your friends, or pay for a movie, or any other form of entertainment ask yourself if you should maybe instead buy some trophies instead as I'm sure the entertainment you'll get from them will last a lot longer than that beer, or the night out with your friends, or a movie. You can debate all kind of angles all you like but the bottom line is games are entertainment, and if you don't put enough value on this one to open up your wallet every month as a part of your entertainment budget then I don't know what to tell you other than maybe you should join the local chess club instead. If everyone thought like you no games would be possible, it takes money, cold hard cash to hire programmers, pay artists, pay server costs and everything else that goes into running a business. It's nice that you think the devs made a "great accomplishment" by creating such a cool game with quality art. Do you think they bartered with the programmers and artists? Maybe they washed their cars and mowed their lawn in return for code and art? Trust me, I've run businesses before and I know what it takes and it takes cash, simple as that. Pats on the back and nice thoughts are great as well, but they alone won't pay the bills.

So the next time you feel like complaining about the game, I want you to remember what you've just read every time you drink a beer or even a coke, or if your friends ask you to hang out and watch a movie and grab a bite to eat with them, be sure to remember it then as well, remember you value those things more than supporting the devs and further development, and when you remember that, also remember to not complain for choosing a different form of entertainment over this game.

I'm not going to get into a debate on this as my stance is pretty obvious and I find it insulting to the devs and all creative professionals the world over that you don't think their creativity, genius and hard work are worth supporting with your money, but instead think they exist solely to provide you with free entertainment regardless of their needs. That's really quite sad and I encourage you think on that. You say you'd like them to make an honest request for money? As Caine said, it's called the Bank page, you should visit it sometime other then to get your free trophy, you'll find many of your complaints will vanish and you might even feel good knowing you are helping an indie studio continue to provide you with an entertainment channel that you obviously find worthy of your time or you wouldn't have written such a lengthy post and made it to Primus for that matter. I highly doubt Nate is sitting on a beach somewhere sipping a cocktail and lighting cigars with $100 bills, no more likely than not he is working 14-16 hour days and hoping he can pay his next week's payroll or the rent on his office, or maybe even his own rent and if he is like most indie entrepreneurs I've met he passionately cares about his creation and isn't in it just for the money like many of the larger establishments you no doubt give money to.

Take a moment to really think these things through and always follow the money, everything in this world runs on money like it or not and if this is a product that you value, than show your appreciation by supporting it with your money, if you can't do that or don't want to do that, then don't complain about a service you are getting for free, and I'd quote the cliche phrase "free as in beer", but as we already discussed, beer isn't free either.

[Kreegan]

It's good to know how much the bear costs where you live, I'll try to avoid that destination (if I find where it is) because these are my spendings for about 3 days. :)
Now please don't put words in my mouth, I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I explicitly mentioned that I'm a bit surprised that the game doesn't require monthly subscription in the first place, its quality is much higher than that of the majority of the browser games (and not only) and I'm not suggesting to make it free at alll. If you think otherwise, feel free to quote me.
However, until this point the free players had a chance to stand their ground against those who pay by just investing extra patience and this no longer seems to be the case (I'll believe the opposite when I see someone equipped in green and blue steadily in Primus top 30 but somehow I think I'll have to wait looong). If the game's summit is supposed to remain reserved for those who pay, that's fine - but not under the label of a "free" game. You may not understand it, but there are people who actually care about honesty. I have zero problems with the devs saying "well, we need the money to keep the game on its feet so we can't be generous any more".

[Apoca1ypse]

I'll believe the opposite when I see someone equipped in green and blue steadily in Primus top 30 but somehow I think I'll have to wait looong

Challenge accepted. Kholek is ~60 atm and in lvl 45 greens. I'll see if he can make top 20 in blues once he is lvl 50 (though i hah intended to recycle Kharn's purple gear onto him....)

It is still possible to get purps for free in less than 35 days per item. I got 4 today by some fluke between the tavern and the arena.


Also don't take offense to Dainoji telling you to leave if you value the game less than the cost of a beer (though beer is awesome) He's just passionate :P I'd like to see people stay around and hopefully help support the game. It means more cool stuff like conquests :3

[CaineDeSoulis]

Bears are pretty expensive. how big of a bear?.....I feel like we've already talked about bears on this forum before

The way it previously set you could in theory make 5 killer's and never have to worry about trophies. I've tested this idea it generated about 10-15 Trophies per day. Thats 300+ a month. hell with the zombie stable I was able to generate a net gain and that's with spending 25 bi weekly and 14 weekly. The bad part about it was that I only did 50% of the work random match-ups did most of my work. as it sits right now i wont be able to afford both the stable champions pack and the auto-heal, auto-repair. I'll just get the champions pack bi weekly and do my own repairs and heals and all will be well. I'll still be able to pocket a few aswell and continue saving up for conquests or something else new and exciting.

To be Completely honest I've tested all the things I've wanted to test at this point and achieved all my personal goals. the builds are pretty well tapped out in terms of what to make. Except a decent fist punchy dood. (which i want to make work but haven't been able to yet) Actually sometimes I think the only reason I stick around is to test the latest updates and new features :).

@Kreegan you seem to have rustled Dain's feathers a mite bit >.<. Which is understandable considering you are politely calling Nate and Eric "Dishonest" or "Sly" for advertising as a Free game. ya' know at this point lets cut the polite talk shit. your basically saying the developers are liars and you liked the old system When YOU joined better than the current one. That's perfectly acceptable I liked being able to make a pile a trophy's each month without a $ investment too. but dont come on here and claim the Developers lied to you.

[Zangi]

Telling people to leave is the best way to deal with dissent... amirite?

Personally, I'm quite unhappy that killing other gladiators gives pretty cruddy rewards now... I don't mind the other changes, like arena challenges and what-not never dropping trophies...
And well, progress... getting the permanent stable upgrades is now months away...

Yes, those 2 things are my biggest gripes about the unannounced changes to trophies.

[Kreegan]

Challenge accepted. Kholek is ~60 atm and in lvl 45 greens. I'll see if he can make top 20 in blues once he is lvl 50 (though i hah intended to recycle Kharn's purple gear onto him....)That's a Rage, right? He might be able to get there, as discussed already the Rage is far less dependent on his equipment than the War and the Theatrics. But you'll probably have issues keeping him in top 30 for more than a few fights.

but dont come on here and claim the Developers lied to you.I don't. My rant is mostly about the backdoor introduction of these changes, not about the fact that they were introduced in general. But anyway, after revealing myself as an evil enemy to the devs, progress, beers (and bears) and everything that any honest, law-abiding citizen holds dear, I think I'll crawl back into the shadows and try to adapt to the changes for a month or so. I said what I wanted to anyway, the interpretations are yours to give.

[Apoca1ypse]

That's a Rage, right?

Yes, the all rage stable runs Kholek as a rage :3


I don't. My rant is mostly about the backdoor introduction of these changes, not about the fact that they were introduced in general.

Ok that's fine. I share the sentiment and wish it had been announced. Maybe define the grievance a little better in the OP by saying "man, I wish the changes to trophies had been announced" so that some of us zealous fanboys (dain :P) dont overreact.

[CaineDeSoulis]

@Zangi Yea I'm not all that excited about the reduction either but I can see both sides of the issue rather than one side of it. I'm also taking into account that Conquests are just around the corner and other new features are on the way shortly. Would I like to Receive a trophy for every kill rather than a fight token or gear? Absolutely. but then the defensive gladiators will kinda be gettin screwed. now at least they have a shot at earning a trophy for winning. its not likely nor is it often but it is good for them.

I'll go ahead and quote Kreegan


Kreegan
"However, the current backdoor approach is a bit... well, sly in a bad way."

"On the other hand a honest request for funding will probably extract some money from my account."

"You may not understand it, but there are people who actually care about honesty."

"My rant is mostly about the backdoor introduction of these changes"


Nice and Polite with a CLEARLY venomous message.

[CaineDeSoulis]

6-04-2012
Nate~
ARENA

Arena Gate fights sometimes reward gladiators with exciting prizes for a win and always for a kill.

but it was announced >.<

[Kreegan]

I CLEARLY don't understand what are you trying to prove. How do you suggest I express my disapproval of something - with an encrypted message, by posting pictures of ponnies, by starting an anonimous campaign on the Internet against unannounced game changes? If you don't like politeness, I can be impolite but the forum etiquette forbids it and so far I've found no reason why I should go on a "clear" offensive. You can find some "venom" on your side of the barricade too (refer to a particular text wall on the previous page) but I guess it's convenient to be selective. You are looking for an insult where there is none and besides the devs can say for themselves if they somehow got offended by this thread, hence your advocating is uncalled-for. So, again, what is your aim exactly?

but it was announcedIt was announced that something will happen, quite literally - what that something is became clear after the update went live. Getting some random prize green item (occasionally blue, maybe even purple once a month) instead of the trophies is hardly the same as getting the prize and the trophies. So the "instead" part was missing from the announcement, as well as the decreased trophy drop for the arena challenges.

[CaineDeSoulis]

Ive literally had gear thrown at me since this update. 4-5 purples and I Dont even know how many blue's and greens. Prey killed someone today got 1300 gold + a trophy + a purple item and it was +5 str +12 agi arm piece. Despite the fact this update changed the arena challenges so that beating them throws a blue or purple instead of a green ( yea beat this tier 6 about a week ago and received 4 T and a green leather leg with ZERO stat boosts). Great for me all my dudes are geared up anyway. Despite that your going to say this update hinders new players.

And ya'know what, thats not even the point thats irritating me. Your in a public forum calling the owners/developers Dishonest and that just aint right. If it were a PM or on the chat server different story. Weve all griped about numerous changes and mechanics. and I'll admit I'm usually the first one to complain about Trophies hell me and Dain have went back and forth on it on more than one occasion.

[Kid Arcane]

I haven't posted much here, though I drop in periodically (once a month or so) to lurk and see if I can pick up anything useful. The latest changes have prompted some head-scratching, so I checked the forums this morning and saw Kreegan's post and all the chatter that came from it. Surprising, really, that there's so much debate about it. He (she?) seems to have put it out there succinctly and accurately. In effect, the new changes work against anyone who isn't paying for this game, particularly anyone at the higher levels of play. Newer players are going to lose a lot unless they pony up some coin. I don't think this is simply opinion; my playing experiences, particularly the results I've gotten since the new changes went into effect, bear this "theory" out. I strongly feel that anyone who thinks that non-paying players are unaffected by these changes (they are, in fact, being affected in a negative way) is deluding themselves... or else not thinking it through completely.

My trophy income has also almost completely disappeared. My gold level has dropped quite a bit as well... I can't afford to buy new equipment as often; it seems like the bills for the automatic repairs and healings have gone up. Also, I can NOT afford to maintain the stable memberships anymore, so when this one runs out I'll probably stop playing. The silly comparisons being made are pointless. I too used to rely on trophies earned in the arena and tavern to keep paying the bills. However, the drop rate has significantly fallen off, so this method of paying for stable memberships, better armor, and auto-anything is simply not feasible anymore. That ship has sailed; we shouldn't be using the 'old' data to compare it to the new.

It IS a fun game and all, and I can understand (and accept) that paying customers should be able to dominate Primus... and they do. That's okay -- they can afford to fill their achievement slots, buy purple equipment, and rearrange their skill slots as needed for their strategies... I can see that and I don't have a problem with that. Many seem to get upset when the money aspect is raised, but that's silly. Kreegan isn't saying that the game should be free, and neither am I. I'm grateful for the chance to play PoW; it's a lot of fun and quite addicting.

However, I don't intend to throw my Rage fighter into the Bloodgames because I know it's a pointless exercise... Calm Fury used to beat a lot of fighters regularly (killing some repeatedly) but now she wins maybe 5 or 6 times out of ten... and the change in gear and the fact that she's never used more than two achievement slots has to have a lot to do with it.

Kreegan: Since the last update my trophy income has almost completely disappeared. Yeah, mine too. The conclusion from this is that I won't be able to play much longer, because my handicap competing against paying customers is going to be insurmountable.

Cutting to the chase: I don't have a problem with the game costing money. I prefer the free version (personal reasons) but I understand why paying customers would have better options and opportunities vs. non-paying customers. That's okay. It was always true at the higher levels of play, and now it's true throughout the game, with the possible exception of the Black Market pit fights. It means some players will be forced to drop the game or else keep playing a losing proposition, which doesn't sit well with most people. No hard feelings about that; it is what it is.

I don't make many comments here but I do want to point out this time that most of what Kreegan said is true, albiet very unpopular (according to most replies, and to my surprise.) There wasn't any bashing of the developers. There weren't any insults or accusations being hurled about. Simply put, the latest changes in the game work against the "play for free" manager. Okay. That makes sense; it's silly and delusional to think otherwise. You might sneak a win here and there against a better-equipped fighter from some rookie's stable, but against anyone who's been managing a team for at least six months, you're going to be toast 9 out of 10 times. I'm amazed that anyone would want to argue about that.

Given that I play for free and my armor and weapons aren't the best, and I rarely use more than two slots (tried it for a while once with one fighter but just couldn't afford it) I do pretty well in this game. Or I used to. Now it's just a downhill slope, and a slippery downhill slope at that. I don't know if I'll hang around for much longer, or what the future holds in any aspect of my life, for that matter, but it's been fun playing this game. I'm sure I'll drop by from time to time, should I decide to drop it. It's very addicting. Losing all the time, not so much, but the game HAS BEEN very addicting.

Where all the arguing and costs of beer and tickets (do people really throw away that much money on that stuff?) came from, I don't know. Kreegan, I agree with 90% of what you had to say. The only thing I'd have to disagree with is the idea that the game SHOULD be a level playing field between the free and the paying customers. Unless there was a special pit arena where Champions fought other Champions with gray armor/weapons (only) and using no more than two achievement slots, you're not going to see that sort of equality. That's okay. If I were paying for the privilege of playing a game, I would expect some perks vs. those pesky freeloaders who I compete against. I can see that angle and I have to agree with it, though I sympathize with the freeloaders because, hey, I AM one!! Maybe we'll get a separate arena just for us small fry. In the meantime, as I said: It is what it is.

And that's my 2¢.

[GorbagGutripper]

Kudos Kid Arcane.....my thoughts exactly. I've played this game since it started, with a nice 6-month?? hiatus, but I came back, because, hey it is addicting (sorta like Bloodpit is, and that game has always been free). I remember waiting a year or more after applying at the old Pathocrom site for it to go live. I'm not really sure why the Trophy drop for a kill has gone away, as I would rather have the trophy than a few K gold or a fight token (big whoop) , BUT I have managed to get three fricking nifty purple items in the last few days, soooooooo that right there is 105 trophies. And the fact you can get blue items now (hey before they cost too many trophies compared to the purple I think). I can also see where a paying customer SHOULD get a benefit over a free-loader like myself...after all I have the loot, but haven't forked it out to buy some trophies ( i like to save my loot for Total Wars, Diablos, Blood Bowls etc). I keep on kicking myself telling myself I should but just never get around to it. Of course, this last month I spent over 100 trophies trying to get a decent gladiator (nothing like spending 10 of them and getting one guy that was 950 or so gold...I have NEVER seen any slaves over 1k and once I spent 30 trophies looking....) so I have had to settle on 975 gold losers. My first batch of gladiators did well until they achieved level 50 (well 2 of them are still over 50%) but I sorta messed them up because I kept all their skills in their Specialties....at least my newer guys that arent theatrics are going for some type of signature move. Ok appears I am rambling.

I only play with two achievement slots and my guys generally do good. So yes, it will stink that the trophies aren't falling off of trees now, but with them falling in the tavern (ok I have seen that decrease as well) you can still get a good 40 or so a month--and perhaps you won't get that particular purple item you are looking for, but chances are you will get a few a week. Heck even one is worth it. The only thing I am going to miss is forking out trophies for the Memberships---so yes you will not be getting 40 or so trains a day now, perhaps 15 or so. But when you gain levels that quickly, you find yourself taking on tougher opponents anyway. Oh and Nate will always answer your questions if you email him--might take awhile, as he probably gets a gazillion a day, but he will give you an answer. So Kreegan, perhaps you should have sent him a message and posted his reply before voicing your complaints.

[amarti01]

First of all, I want to say that I am NEW here- I only started Pit of War two days ago. I think that I can contribute to this topic as a new player (since I get the impression that all of you commenting so far are already at the very top rankings with a lot of your gladiators/stables). However, I also want to mention that I know I might be wrong about some things, since I'm new. So instead of trolling/raging against me for my views & opinions, why don't you kindly correct me (no need to get defensive in your replies or increase your risk of heart attack down the road), and most importantly keep in mind that if I feel these ways, then most likely so do most of the other newbies. Finally, I will put my suggestions at the end, because otherwise what's the point, right?

I believe that the change in trophies was mostly directed at getting money from the newcomers, not the veteran players such as yourselves. This is obvious to me, because you all already have all your stable upgrades, and all or most of your purple gear. As somebody pointed out earlier in the thread, all you guys need now is ~3 trophies/day which is possible for you guys. Newcomers, on the other hand, also need to buy stable upgrades, gear, and skills (I know nobody brought up skills yet, but I'll mention why it stands out to me:)

I mention skills, because without trophies, they LOOK like they'll take 12-24 months to max out. Notice I said 'LOOK like'... Being brand new to the game, I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get, and I'm sure all other newbies would agree with me. It's important to remember that you all had trophies to level/unlevel your skills in your experiments with character builds. And it's also important to remember that this game has a steep learning curve. You all have learned a lot of knowledge and experience in experimenting with multiple gladiators, and now new players won't be able to afford doing that. This means all new players will be limited to the formulas that others have already posted in the forums. Does anybody really want that??

I suspect that either you all forgot the costs of stable upgrades or they were changed. Because as of now, it costs me 30 trophies to upgrade my Barracks from lvl1 to lvl2 (out of 4). It costs 30T to upgrade my vault the first time (it doesn't say how many upgrades are possible, so I'm assuming it's about 4-5). It costs 95T to upgrade my doctor the FIRST TIME (out of 3 upgrades). Seeing as how skills and the few stable upgrades I could do without trophies increased exponentially in cost, I have no choice but to assume that even at 3 trophies per day, it would take me over a year just to finish upgrading my stables (and that's if I don't spend any trophies anywhere else)!! Again, I have to admit that I'm a noob, so maybe the stable upgrade trophy costs don't increase exponentially, but that's the impression that I get and I'm sure all noobs do. Also, I've only been getting 1 trophy per day, I don't know how you all get them (Maybe it's because the rewards/prizes get better as you fight harder opponents?? You ever consider that could be the case also)? Anyway, at my current rate, it would take me about 5 and a half months just to get the first upgrade of barracks, vault, and doctor! I'm willing to bet none of you would have been willing to wait that long just for those upgrades. You might say you could now, now that you love the game so much and have invested so much into it, but probably not when you first were starting. I know the thought of sacrificing spending no trophies for that long for just those measly first stable upgrades makes me cringe...

I know you all probably know some insane builds through your knowledge and experience, as I mentioned earlier, but I don't know any. I've even read every forum post in the classes section, and almost done with all the other forum posts. No noobs ever already know more than the 2 year, top ranked players. And then I have green gear, and have gotten my first blue gear. I see the difference. It's a huge difference! Seeing the difference (and I'm only Rage btw), I can't see how any of you could possibly convince me that I could beat purple gear veterans of the game as a noob with just green gear. Even if there was a way, I'm sure it would have to be so specific and nitpicky that you would have to tell me everything to do in detail. And again, do you really want every newcoming player to be exact carbon copies of each other??? Besides, you all would quickly figure out how to counter it anyway and/or the build would get nerfed....

Some of you said, well the solution is simple then- PAY. First off, this is obviously going to prevent all ages under 18 from playing, as they don't have credit cards anyway. I don't know how much it costs/trophy, and I don't care. The simple reason why most newcomers are going to completely abandon this game is they'll THINK their money could be better spent elsewhere. Notice I said 'they'll THINK'... You all have come to love this game more and more over time the more you invest your time and emotion into it, so for you, yeah it's worth spending money continuously. But a newcomer hasn't developed an attachment to the game yet. It took me all of 5 minutes to realize that I'll either have to spend hundreds of dollars, or years just to get the stable upgrades, gear, and skills. For somebody who hasn't come to love the game, IT'S NOT WORTH IT. 99.99% of newcomers will quit, before they even really start. Even for people who aren't against spending money, they're going to think, "Well, if I HAVE to spend money to play a game, I might as well look for a better game I'll enjoy more first before I start throwing weeks of pay at this one."

Before anybody rants on me about being a tightwad or whatever, I have spent hundreds on games before. But after playing only the so-called "free-to-play" games for about 8 years now, I have noticed a pattern... Anytime a game forces its players to "pay to win", they fail within a year. A few people pay to win > most of the playerbase drops out > the company adds new content to pay for > more playerbase drops out > cycle continues until everybody is too angry at the devs to continue. That's why I no longer pay for games that FORCE you to pay to be top tie (or force you to spend years upon years to get there). I have paid to win before, and it's not worth it to me, since the playerbase drops off so fast.

Finally, here's my suggestion, the whole point :)
Redirect who pays from the newcomers to the veterans. Newcomers aren't willing to pay for something they haven't even come to enjoy yet, but the hardcores are (I think everybody in this thread already admitted they would pay). This will keep the newcomers from being turned off and give them enough time to start loving the game to the point that they will also pay. Do this by returning the trophy drops (but lowering the drop rate from what it was originally), and adding a new type of token. The new type of token will be what has to be paid for, but will give different gear (better gear or new gear [are the ring slots or whatever next to the legs unlocked yet?]). Maybe this could be the Conquest section (unless that's already unlocked. Then maybe a new arena like the Coliseum or something. These are just spitball ideas, I'm sure all of you could think of something better since I don't even know what the top players want/need at your level). The point is, it could be anything, more skills than 100, pay to unlock a new trigger, whatever...

Play with my suggestion in your heads for a while before deciding about it. And remember, even games like WoW give newcomers free trials for a month or up to a level before they make you pay. They're doing the same thing I recommended- let the newbies learn to get addicted to the game before making them pay. Otherwise, they all get scared away :)

All this being said, I personally won't be playing anymore. I couldn't stop thinking about anything other than Pit of War the last two days since I joined (I was already planning on quitting all other games to focus on just this one), but it's not worth waiting the years that I'm predicting it will take (especially since I'm also predicting the game will fail in a year or even faster if it doesn't change making newbies pay from the start to finish). The only reason I stayed two whole days is because it said somewhere (in the tutorial I think) that kills grant trophies, and I was planning builds with Crowd Pleaser and/or Finishing Blow from the Theatrics tree to get the trophies I needed. But after a couple kills with no trophies, I looked for and found this thread (to see why I didn't get them). I'll probably check back every month or so, and see if it's changed. Otherwise, I won't be returning.

Best of luck to you all.

[CaineDeSoulis]

well... skills and stat trains on a build would probably only take you about 2-3 months with the stable memberships. and 4-6 months without.I may be an old player but for the past 6 months I've also been a free player.

Stable upgrades are crazy costed honestly. I bought them all but still. they are pretty expensive. and i think its the only thing that hasnt seen a price change since the games launch.

a Trophy for every kill was great but it gave the real killers in the game a pretty big advantage in terms of bang for the buck.

since youve only been playing for a couple days i believe you can get 3 gladiator slots for gold and 2 more will cost 30T each. and the arena challenge victory's after tier 1 tier 2-6 all grant a trophy each. if you clear all the challenges with each gladiator you have you'll earn 250T fir your effort.