Anti-Last-Stand Strategy?

[Kreegan]

All of my non-Theatrics gladiators have identical problems vs. opponents (Rages in the vast number of the cases, naturally) with well-developed Last Stand. The fight goes smoothly until the point when the skill triggers and then my gladiator suddenly finds himself on the ground, tears in his/her eyes, etc. It's getting rather irritating, especially against 2H Rages who are winning in exactly the same manner against me for quite some time now - i.e. get beaten to very low health while scoring about 1-2 big hits in the meantime (still my own gladiator is well on his/her feet and can take some more), then their Last Stand strategy kicks in, they immediately score no less than 2 consecutive very heavy hits (less than 400 damage per hit and I feel lucky) and bring my fighter down. The only ways to avoid this scenario is either to respective Rage to miss one of his attacks; or to get kicked back if Create Distance triggers; or to be stunned before Last Stand triggers. Apparently all these are based on "luck" and I need something controlled.
So, in Rage vs. Rage there doesn't seem to be much room for experiments, it seems like whoever's Last Stand kicks in first (and provided that the opponents has suffered some damage prior to that) wins the battle - of course I'm open to suggestions how to turn this in my favour where possible. Theatrics and perfectly capable of countering most of Rage's strategies, including this one, so I'm skipping it. The only thing which comes to mind about War vs. Rage is to make a trigger for "Opponent is very injured" like 8-10 - Tank - 1-2 and hope that the Last Stand hits will get absorbed, then set a strategy for some counter-attack but I can't really figure out which trigger to use and where to place it so both can kick in when necessary (i.e. first defense to reduce the damage, then offense to bring down the opponent). Also, it looks counter-productive vs. other Wars and Theatrics and generally in close battles. Suggestions?

[crow]

There is not much you can do about this right now. I admit it is very frustrating to see your fighter giving his opponent a good whooping, then last stand triggering turning his/her opponent into a completely different fighter. Add into that the additional health gained and for all practical purposes your guy is fighting 2 separate fights. This was a VERY heated discussion over a year ago, with several folks feeling that 1 skill should not be so powerful. Then most of us managers started including last stands on most of our builds to try and take advantage of this.

My biggest pet peve about the set up right now is how in god's green earth can a dual wielding axe fighter hit as hard consistantly as a 2hand war. And a dual rage will easily hit harder. Even when a 2hand war is sporting 170+ strength. And this is just not my 2hander but all of them.

[Prinny]

Counter strategy is simple: Learn your glad Last Stand it's how my war's are able to win from rage's :P

[Cynaidh]

Counter strategy is simple: Learn your glad Last Stand

Unfortunately that is very true, i know at one point the entire top 10 of primus had last stand, I think spots 8 and higher have it now. I just changed one of my glads who had Battle Hardened to 10 to having last stand, he jumped from being in the 30's-50's to being top 5 after the change.

I too tried to work on making a counter for last stand with Tank but its not possible right now due to when last stand triggers after "Opponent is very injured" but before "Opponent is trying to Give Up", Nate confirmed that for me a few months ago, he said he might look into it and see if it should change some time in the future. So right now there is no trigger that will activate at the same time as last stand that you can use.

[Dainoji]

My biggest pet peve about the set up right now is how in god's green earth can a dual wielding axe fighter hit as hard consistantly as a 2hand war.

Berserk offers a damage buff over the war fighting styles and add into the mix other damage buffs and you've got your answer.

[crow]

Berserk offers a damage buff over the war fighting styles and add into the mix other damage buffs and you've got your answer.

I can see that in a rage fighter, but I am talking about wars and theatrics too. I have just noticed even with my own guys that use dual weapons that they hit as hard as 2hand wars.

Personally I would like to see the damage dialed back for all the glads. There is just too many 1-2 round fights. Ask any manager how they run there Rage fighter and most only use 1 strategy..berserk 10/?. Because the damage is so high now..using strategies for endurance factors and other triggers are not necessary. Almost seems like the game has gotten simpler because of this. If you get more fights were these guys are wearing out because they can not win in a round or 2. Then more complex strategies will have to used..hence more thinking required.

The only type of glad that I think is set just right are the 2hand rages. These poor fellows have been the whipping boys of the arena for so long.

[Dainoji]

Chuck Norris and Pharaoh make rage glads pass out ALL the time, they make War and Theatrics glads pass out as well. The second I see Trug in the race column I'm 80% sure I'm going to win. And if I see Rage of any race I'm 60% sure I'll win. They also make their fair share of War ard Theatrics glads pass out as well. The reason you aren't seeing long fights is nobody is spec'd to make that happen save my two glads and a few others. If more people would do it you'd see a shift on the sands. The problem with those two glads is the second I see a 2H weapon in the other guys hand I know with 95% certainty I will lose, and there are just enough 2H glads to keep my boys out of the top spots but they often hover in the 20s and 30s at times.

I'm not saying your observations aren't correct, but I am suggestion they are consequences of players actions and not necessarily the game mechanics themselves. If tomorrow 80% of Primus decided to become Snivlers there would be a race to figure out how to get more initiative or get the first hit, if a majority switched to Dunder people would untrain barreling attack and glads with signature move sweep would cry about how useless it is. There has always been a meta game to this game as we chase the trends and try and stay on the crest of each wave. Right now it would seem Cynaidh has this wave licked!

I propose we start a thread in the Suggestion forum and offer solutions to perceived issues but take care to stay away from things like "this is useless" or "this is stupid", or "2H rage sucks" types of comments. For starters it looks like people might like a trigger that happens at the same time as Last Stand or shortly before or after. Suggestions like this would offer more strategic options and enhance the game. Comments like "reduce damage" aren't helpful because we don't really know what it going on and reducing damage doesn't really offer a specific strategic option. If your concern is too much damage/fast fights perhaps you would suggest a trigger to fire if you are fighting a Dunder, or a 2H glad to counter what you perceive as dealing a lot of damage. Offering up ideas that give the players more strategic variety and options are what I'm talking about. I think suggestions like that from the collective wisdom of the player base with thousands of hours of playtime under their belts would be useful feedback to the devs.

[Apoca1ypse]

last stand triggers when you are very injured, so having a strategy for "my opponent is very injured" gives you your strategy change for when last stand would trigger.

Sure, you'll have that strategy trigger even if your opponent does not have last stand, but that wouldnt be the end of the world.



I also agree with crow that top end fights are silly and too fast. I've stopped running my primus glads and enjoyed going back to running a new gladiator where fights last 3-4 rounds and damage + swing rates are sensible.

[Dainoji]

I also agree with crow that top end fights are silly and too fast. I've stopped running my primus glads and enjoyed going back to running a new gladiator where fights last 3-4 rounds and damage + swing rates are sensible.

Chuck Norris's fights last 4-8 rounds consistently and Pharaoh's average is 8-10 and I just had a 75 round fight. Both are in Primus, so as I said, it is more a trend of current glads. Sitting out is your prerogative of course, but why not instead explore ways to lengthen your fights if that is what you want.

[Kreegan]

last stand triggers when you are very injured, so having a strategy for "my opponent is very injured" gives you your strategy change for when last stand would trigger.The fine-tuning seems to be pretty problematic though. I tried 10-Tank-1 for Opponent is very injured on position 4 and 8-Bash-10 for Opponent is trying to give up on position 3 and the latter triggered when Last Stand triggered for the opposing Rage (needless to say, my War lost). I hoped that a gladiator with Last Stand will get "very injured" before he tries to give up and thus my guy's strategies will trigger in the right order but it's not working. I'll try with 10-Tank-1 for Opponent is trying to give up and see how it goes (although I don't know how to make my gladiator attack after that... a dead end). The other problem is that the 2H Rages sometimes score big criticals even against tanking Wars (just recently one such guy with an unimpressive blue Battle Flail hit my tanking War for some 400 damage)...

Sure, you'll have that strategy trigger even if your opponent does not have last stand, but that wouldnt be the end of the world.If you start tanking at the end of the fight which you are otherwise winning, any Theatrics with good level of Gratuitous Violence (which is basically any Theatrics in the higher brackets) will bring you down with bleeding (and get a better chance to knock you out) and most Wars will receive an advantage as well. It's not really wise to set your entire strategy to counter one class and lose more often against the other two because of it.

[Dainoji]

Ah right, the "opponent is trying to give up" trigger, forgot about that since I never use it. Well, if that is triggering at the same time as Last Stand then it looks like it's already in there. The problem you are seeing is likely due to the fact that the conditions for "very injured" and "opponent is trying to give up" are close to each other. If it is something like "very injured" is only 25% health left and "opponent is trying to give up" is around 10% left it is possible to score a hit that takes a glad from more than 25% to less than 10% and thus skip the very injured trigger.

Try setting up your #4 strat row to "opponent is trying to give up", and then have your #3 strat row be something like "I have less health than opponent" or some other health condition. This way if you are winning the fight your #4 trigger will fire allowing you to tank and get some protection from Last Stand and then if you start to lose before the match ends you'll switch to your #3 trigger and can start attacking again. I'm sure you get the idea, not sure if "I have less health than opponent" is the trigger to use or not, but you could even try the odd/even round triggers for row #3. Sometimes you'll get caught in the wrong round and your Last Stand trigger won't fire, but about 50% of the time you'll tank for their last stand and then go offensive the next round and then back to tanking and then back to attacking and so on. Those triggers were introduced when Nate wanted War glads to be more Tank n' Spank glads instead of the Total Parry fortresses they were.

[Kreegan]

but you could even try the odd/even round triggers for row #3. Sometimes you'll get caught in the wrong round and your Last Stand trigger won't fire, but about 50% of the time you'll tank for their last stand and then go offensive the next round and then back to tanking and then back to attacking and so on.That won't work because Last Stand triggers in the same round, meaning that your gladiator is attacking to get the Last-Stand-gladiator to low health, i.e. your gladiator is not tanking. If your gladiator is on his/her feet when the next round begins, then maybe - but the problem is that in 95% of the cases he/she is down by then. But even in this case it's a gamble.
By the way I have a War who's switching between tank and attack constantly exactly as you say (even/odd rounds) for more than 250 fights now but that doesn't help one bit when Last Stand kicks in.

Try setting up your #4 strat row to "opponent is trying to give up", and then have your #3 strat row be something like "I have less health than opponent" or some other health condition.I could try it but it's again very hard to predict what will happen. Your gladiator will have to allow to be beaten to less health than the Last-Stand-gladiator which is very low health no matter what and even if the strategy kicks in properly, your guy may decide to give up instead of keep fighting. I supposed Grim Determination can help here... will check it out.

[Apoca1ypse]

Chuck Norris's fights last 4-8 rounds consistently and Pharaoh's average is 8-10 and I just had a 75 round fight. Both are in Primus, so as I said, it is more a trend of current glads. Sitting out is your prerogative of course, but why not instead explore ways to lengthen your fights if that is what you want.

kinda hard with an all rage stable. either win fast, or more frequently, lose fast.

[Dainoji]

kinda hard with an all rage stable.

Heh, yeah I thought about that after writing my post. Perhaps it's time to recruit some non-ragers into Team Win *gasp* ;)

[Apoca1ypse]

blasphemy!

I should probably use my theatrics or war stable, but i'm a 1 stable kinda guy...

[oedi]

My biggest pet peve about the set up right now is how in god's green earth can a dual wielding axe fighter hit as hard consistantly as a 2hand war. And a dual rage will easily hit harder. Even when a 2hand war is sporting 170+ strength. And this is just not my 2hander but all of them.
the reason why its like this i believe lies in the fact that to successfully use Axe/mace for offensive(damage) purposes you only need strength and int. Very simplified id say damage is something like this: damagebonus(str)+ average of weapon stats. That gives you a very good return on the invested strenght for all axe/mace wielders. This also explains why, in my opinion, its so hard to get consistantly high damage out of polearms. Its the only weapon that need 4 stats: str, int, agi, stam. I include strength here for all weapons because i belive that the damage bonus you get from strength are essential for most builds.
axe/mace 2 stats (str / int)
blades, exotic 3 stats (str / int / agi)
2h, shield 3 stats (str / int / stam)
polearms 4 stats (str / int / agi / stam)

[Cynaidh]

Ah right, the "opponent is trying to give up" trigger, forgot about that since I never use it. Well, if that is triggering at the same time as Last Stand then it looks like it's already in there.


It doesn't trigger at the same time, here is the answer to the private message i sent Nate asking about it a few months ago:


Everything is working correctly, the discrepancy you are seeing is because the criteria for Last Stand to go off is met before the criteria of "Opponent is trying to Give Up". I'll make a note of this and look and see if this should be changed in the future.

Good luck in the Pit!

Last Stand triggers some time after "my opponent is very injured" but before "opponent is trying to give up", its really annoying that there is no trigger to try and combat it, probably why it so damn popular on glads. :)



I include strength here for all weapons because i belive that the damage bonus you get from strength are essential for most builds

Totally agree with you Oedi, i wish it wasn't that way, that weapons like the rapier and some of the exotic weapons where pure agility based.


There is only two ways that i know of to "beat" last stand.

1. If you can hit them hard enough to "jump" over it, last stand will only heal for a set amount, if you can do more damage then that in 1 hit you can put them down without it going off.

2. If you can stun them right before it supposed to go off it won't fire, you can see that in Lahral vs Zmash in the bloodgames last night.

[Prinny]

There is only two ways that i know of to "beat" last stand.

1. If you can hit them hard enough to "jump" over it, last stand will only heal for a set amount, if you can do more damage then that in 1 hit you can put them down without it going off.

2. If you can stun them right before it supposed to go off it won't fire, you can see that in Lahral vs Zmash in the bloodgames last night.

I know your angry that Laharl beat him but that's no reason to spell his name wrong :D

Also Last Stand doesn't trigger when you jump over the HP before it can be triggered.

Lets say Laharl triggers it at 500 Hp and fights Belgarad

Laharl has 541 Health left and Belgarad hits with a 561 Hit he jumps over the Last Stand trigger and beats him, Last Stand won't trigger if you jump over it so he doesn't heal another lets say 400 aditional Health and gain a couple of attacks.

Something else that nullifies Last Stand is if it goes off due to bleed at the start of a round.
If it does due to bleed at the start of the round the gladiator will get the health but wont get the extra attacks.

[Cynaidh]

Sorry I spell it wrong every time i think :P

That was a good fight, i am sure they will go at it again soon :)

i didnt know about bleed damage causing it to not fire off, the jump over it think was what i was trying to say in my number 1 for it, so we got 3 ways to make it not fire.

1. jumping over it in damage
2. stun's stop it
3. bleed damage going over it at beginning of round

[Kreegan]

It doesn't trigger at the same time, here is the answer to the private message i sent Nate asking about it a few months ago:

Everything is working correctly, the discrepancy you are seeing is because the criteria for Last Stand to go off is met before the criteria of "Opponent is trying to Give Up". I'll make a note of this and look and see if this should be changed in the future.

Good luck in the Pit!I can confirm that, neither "Opponent is very injured", nor "Opponent is trying to give up" make the respective strategy trigger at the same time when Last Stand triggers - tried them both. It's just not counterable no matter what you try. :(

Something else that nullifies Last Stand is if it goes off due to bleed at the start of a round.It goes off immediately after the gladiator with Last Stand gets enough damage though, i.e. in the same round. I'm not sure for Last Stand Wars but the Rages always attack at least twice in the same round when they get hit hard enough to activate the ability, probably because they have a Berserk strategy that goes with it. Either way, it's an instant loss except if your gladiator is almost on full health.

the reason why its like this i believe lies in the fact that to successfully use Axe/mace for offensive(damage) purposes you only need strength and int. Very simplified id say damage is something like this: damagebonus(str)+ average of weapon stats. That gives you a very good return on the invested strenght for all axe/mace wielders. This also explains why, in my opinion, its so hard to get consistantly high damage out of polearms. Its the only weapon that need 4 stats: str, int, agi, stam. I include strength here for all weapons because i belive that the damage bonus you get from strength are essential for most builds. I think it's a matter of armour penetration power. Axes and maces deal almost the same damage against lightly and heavily armoured opponents, effectively ignoring the bonuses that heavy armour provides while the polearms are much less affective vs. good armour. Axes & Maces gladiators normally beat 2H/Polearms gladiators without breaking a sweat.

[Prinny]

Last Stand does activate but it doesn't give you the extra attacks.
Laharl can dish out 1-3 attacks a round, 5 with Last Stand triggering (Depends on the moment of the fight)

When it triggers after an attack in the round he does the attacks, when it triggers due to bleed he doesn't do this.

Same with Shikii, Yuki Onna and Nura.

[Kreegan]

Sorry, I misunderstood you - you are talking about Last Stand triggered by bleeding, not by hit. It's probably as you say then (haven't seen such situation myself).

[Kreegan]

A question to the devs (if some of them reads this) - do you plan to change/re-balance (essentially nerf) Last Stand? Every day about half (sometimes more) of my gladiators' losses in the arena are against nearly beaten Rages who abuse the ability. It's just stupid to watch your fighter stand almost victorious at one moment and beaten to death in the next and you can do nothing to prevent such outcome.

[Nate]

Hi Kreegan,

We plan on doing a balancing pass in the near future. You can read more here:

http://forum.pitofwar.com/showthread.php?1174-What-irons-are-in-the-fire-at-Outcast-Games-right-now

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

[Prinny]

Hi Kreegan,

We plan on doing a balancing pass in the near future. You can read more here:

http://forum.pitofwar.com/showthread.php?1174-What-irons-are-in-the-fire-at-Outcast-Games-right-now

Good luck in the Pit!

-Nate-

Probably gonna be a pain in the ass for my glads again as almost all "balancings" are~

[Apoca1ypse]

Prinny, you may get armor again :3

I'm hoping that it becomes easier to be encumbered, but with lower penalties for each level of encumbrance.

[Prinny]

Lol Encumbrance is fine the way it is with all my glads exept for Nura being Encumbered xD

Who cares about armor if to wear them on a war without getting encumbered you need a massive size anyway? :P