Achievements and "Pay-To-Win"

[Narol]

Now that I have reached the elite in Primus , I realize that buying and using well ALL the achievements slots makes a big difference in the tight battles at the top.

The problem is that the last 4 slots can only be bought for trophees, and even if 6 trophees a week doesn't seems much, in the end it's very costy.

Let's do the math for 4 weeks and a complete stable with 5 gladiators :

5 gladiators x 4 slots x 4 weeks x 6 trophees = 480 trophees by team a month !

Add the champions 4 pack that is a must, that means a regular cost to stay competitive of 530 trophees a month...

Even if you buy trophees in bulk, that means 53 $ a month if you have a full team of elite warriors, and 689 $ a year !


In my opinion, that really turns PoW into a "Pay-To-Win" game and that's gonna scare away many potential players once they realize, which is a pity.

Let's be realistic, very few players will accept to pay 689 $ a year just to have a chance to win in an internet game, even such a deep and addictive great game as PoW...

My suggestion is to make all achievement slots available for gold, that would encourage players to spend their gold wisely in game and fix instantly that "pay-to-Win" problem.

With all the recent changes, many new useful options have been introduced that can only be paid by trophees (memberships, auto-repair, auto-heal, auto-quests, etc...), so people will still have many incentives to buys trophees but those are confort features that doesn't give an unfair advantage in the game to the biggest spenders.

It's up to you, Nate and Eric, to decide if you want to give PoW a chance to become a popular game with a huge player base or to keep it a playground for a very small group of rich players who can afford to pay for all the boosts...

[Apoca1ypse]

I would like achievements to go to gold too as it is attainable to everyone, though leaving trophies as a shortcut to using them too.

there are plenty of other things that are now trophy only, and imo the newer ones like auto repair/heal and memberships should stay as trophy only. they're convenient, but do not give a direct advantage. paying for convenience is something i'm fine with. achievements however give a huge, direct benefit that should be available to both paying and free-to-play managers.

Sure, some people who are just scraping through on their gold, or leaking like a sieve will still struggle, but at least having an option is cool. that, and I think it would prompt me to finally get lvl 6 armory for both convenience, and the bonus of gold becoming much more relevant.

[CaineDeSoulis]

i only very rarely have used all 6 slots. prey has never used more than 2 for example. Tourach occasionally uses 3 Caine use's all 6 depending on how many kill's sedris gets lol.

[Narol]

That's exactly proving my point, Caine being the only one of your glads in the top 10 of Primus...

[Cynaidh]

Achievement slots does seem to be the odd ball, the one thing where you do pay for a serious advantage with trophies, i mean yes you buy purple gear with trophies, but a person who saves up as a glad is leveling to 50 can get past that with the trophies from arena challenges and finding them in tavern fights I've never added up how many you get from 1-50 in arena challenges but i bet its close to enough to outfit a glad in level 50 purples at 50 when your stuck on apoc, but keep achievements unlocked.... kinda a hard hitter for a free to play person due to the volume of trophies needed. I personally think it would be better for the game if they where all gold based, really its the only thing that is different like this.

[Dainoji]

Now that I have reached the elite in Primus , I realize that buying and using well ALL the achievements slots makes a big difference in the tight battles at the top.

Sometimes, not always.


The problem is that the last 4 slots can only be bought for trophees, and even if 6 trophees a week doesn't seems much, in the end it's very costy.

Then don't use them, you don't have to.


5 gladiators x 4 slots x 4 weeks x 6 trophees = 480 trophees by team a month !

Your choice to run 5 gladiators (10 if your signature is correct), drop down to fewer gladiators if you want to also use all the slots.


Add the champions 4 pack that is a must, that means a regular cost to stay competitive of 530 trophees a month...

Hmmm, lots of things wrong with this statement. Firstly, no, the 4 pack is not a must and no, it doesn't cost 530 trophies a month to stay competitive.


In my opinion, that really turns PoW into a "Pay-To-Win" game and that's gonna scare away many potential players once they realize, which is a pity.

Let's be realistic, very few players will accept to pay 689 $ a year just to have a chance to win in an internet game, even such a deep and addictive great game as PoW...

My suggestion is to make all achievement slots available for gold, that would encourage players to spend their gold wisely in game and fix instantly that "pay-to-Win" problem.

With all the recent changes, many new useful options have been introduced that can only be paid by trophees (memberships, auto-repair, auto-heal, auto-quests, etc...), so people will still have many incentives to buys trophees but those are confort features that doesn't give an unfair advantage in the game to the biggest spenders.

It's up to you, Nate and Eric, to decide if you want to give PoW a chance to become a popular game with a huge player base or to keep it a playground for a very small group of rich players who can afford to pay for all the boosts...

This topic has been beat to death already on the boards, the main points are you as a player have the ability to spend as much or as little as you want. If you want to use all the shiny toys, then run fewer gladiators until your budget allows for more. Just because your gladiators don't win a fight doesn't mean your opponent is spending more money than you although that is certainly the easy scapegoat. If your gladiators aren't winning it is more likely they have more work to do on their build and strategies.

I'll add that having all the shiny toys does not mean you'll beat a gladiator without them either. Thunder Lips has been using all 6 for the past month and guess where he is ranked? Yeah, not in the top 10.

[CaineDeSoulis]

I kinda Agree With Dain here. there the most expensive short term investment hands down for a stable of 5. but not completely necessary to compete. it would be nice if it was more accessible but not all that necessary.

[Narol]

Dainoji, my warriors are winning quite well and my Siam even finished second at the last Blood Games, in case you didn't noticed... So I don't need a scapegoat !

I'm spending money on 5 of my guys to give them the 6 slots, it's expensive for my budget but I can tell by experience that it REALLY makes a difference. It doesn't guarantee a win but it will raise seriously your W/L ratio if you match it with a smart strat.

At the contrary, even the best trainer will have a very hard time keeping a guy for a long time in the top 10 without using the 6 slots.

I love this game too much to just run 3 gladiators like you just because my budget wouldn't allow me to give them all the complete set of bells and whistles, but you won't stop me from telling that it sucks that the current achievement system makes the game "Pay-To-Win".

See you in the Arena, I will make you feel the difference and maybe open a breach in your closed mind !

[Dainoji]

Dainoji, my warriors are winning quite well and my Siam even finished second at the last Blood Games, in case you didn't noticed... So I don't need a scapegoat !

Congratulations!


I'm spending money on 5 of my guys to give them the 6 slots, it's expensive for my budget but I can tell by experience that it REALLY makes a difference. It doesn't guarantee a win but it will raise seriously your W/L ratio if you match it with a smart strat.

Guess I need smarter strats. I'll get to work on that!


At the contrary, even the best trainer will have a very hard time keeping a guy for a long time in the top 10 without using the 6 slots.

Maybe, I'm not privy to all the other player's gladiators, I can only speak for my own.


I love this game too much to just run 3 gladiators like you just because my budget wouldn't allow me to give them all the complete set of bells and whistles, but you won't stop me from telling that it sucks that the current achievement system makes the game "Pay-To-Win".

I love it too, and of course you are free to have an opinion and glad you do, people without opinions are dull, but remember, opinions are not fact, they are just opinions be mindful to treat them as such.


See you in the Arena, I will make you feel the difference and maybe open a breach in your closed mind !

I sure hope so! While you are in there can you see if you can do something about my fear of commitment? Oh! And my spelling, I never was a good speller...that little red squiggly line in Firefox is a godsend!

My gladiators are Thunder Lips, Chuck Norris and Pharaoh, challenge away! ;)

[HipsterD]

I agree with Narol, and I don't think the point in the end is whether you can be competitive with a small budget or not. The real (and much more interesting) issue: can this become a great game with a great number of players with the current trophy system or not. I hope I'm wrong, because I enjoy the game thoroughly, but I doubt that it will ever see the kind of numbers of players that it should.

[Prinny]

Ill have a say in this matter, jsut choose your achievements wisely and put the best ones in the gold slots.
Laharl has always ran with all 6 of them and the most benefit comes from the +10 size and 250 hp by far.
Nura and Yuki both run with 2-3 achievements and so have Shikii and Jinrou, they have been upgraded to 4-6 since they participate in the bloodgames.

Nate tweaked the cost for the last 2 achievements from 12 a week to 6 which cuts into the costs majorly and ive been happy with that, if you are doing anything about the trophies than make the third one optional for both gold and trophies but not more than that.

[Narol]

Laharl is ranked 32th in Primus with 6 achievement slots and was in the top 25 yesterday if I remember well...

With 4-6 slots, Shikii is ranked 46th and Jinrou 64th.

With only 2-3 slots, Yuki is ranked 73th and Nura is 74th (amongst 75 gladiators in Primus)

Again, your example just prove my point, Prinny... Knowing how good a trainer you are, I'm sure your glads other then Laharl would have been ranked much higher if they all had the 6 slots active !

[CaineDeSoulis]

and prey is 14th and has NEVER had achievements 4,5 or 6 active. 3 was activated for +8 luck to see if it affected tavern missons. and she is a former champion.

[Narol]

Prey is very good, but Caine with 6 active slots is ranked 9th and ahead of her... I bet that Prey would be in the top 10 and maybe champion again with the 6 slots too !

So you prove too my point, dear Caine.

Guys, you don't seem to realize that the game has become tougher with the recent changes as a lot more gladiators have reached Primus and that it's almost impossible to stay long at the top without all the bonus you can get (achievements, purple items, races...)

Purple Items and Races are one-time costs so a patient manager can save trophies to buy them and catch up someday, but achievements are a regular weekly cost and ultimately make the difference all things equal aside...

[Prinny]

With only 2-3 slots, Yuki is ranked 73th and Nura is 74th (amongst 75 gladiators in Primus)

Again, your example just prove my point, Prinny... Knowing how good a trainer you are, I'm sure your glads other then Laharl would have been ranked much higher if they all had the 6 slots active !

Im a crappy trainer :P
Have you ever taken a good look at Nura and Yuki? their builds are far from complete and Nura's gear is still around lvl 29,30 exept for his weapon lol
In addition to that they joined Primus only 2 days or so ago :P

Also I run 4 humans, so I dont get that great bonus to health like a trug or the extra damage a dunder has. only a small crappy bonus to attack power :P

[Narol]

Humans need more love, definitely...

I would suggest an increasing bonus when they level up, +20 in offensive power being nice at low level but not very useful at high level.

Something like :

+ 20 at level 1

+25 at level 10

+30 at level 20

+35 at level 30

+40 at level 40

+50 at level 50

[WheelDraw]

I'm new and have mixed feelings. First, I think if a game is fun it doesn't matter much if you have a shot at winning. If a guy wants to play no-pay (and he couldn't play unless somebody was paying) what's the big deal if he can't win? Enjoy the game for what it is, enjoy your achievements relative to what you have to work with (think one of the minnows in the EPL being thrilled to avoid relegation...their goals and their fans' expectations are and should be quite a bit different from say a Manchester team), and that's that. On the other hand it does seem like the best way to handle the pay stuff is to make it about extras not core game-play. Use it to buy a custom avatar, to speed your way through leveling, to open up an unplayable class (that is balanced with the other classes), to have a bigger stable, etc. As far as which individual gladiator wins an individual fight it would be nice to see that as a completely level playing field.

[bugua]

this is what the dev keep working on the game

[MrEpik]

I just started playing a week ago, so take my points for what is worth (very little).

I think the basis of "fair" Free-to-play is money doens´t buy power. Even if this power is very tiny.

"Quality of life" things are totally fine purchable with trophies only, the scribe, auto-heal/repair, 100 energy are all good examples of quality of life.
But i think that for everything else, there should be a gold option, even if very high.

Things like a Purple tier weapowns, stable upgrades and archivement slots should have a gold option IMHO.

I won´t put a value on those, as i´m yet to reach the higher tiers, so idk how much gold you guys can net a day, but it should be something high enough that would make spending money very atractive, but not a necessity.

And i hear what you top guys are saying, those things are not a necessity to reach the top, but just by the fact that they give power, even if little, take the fairness out of F2P, as this "little " advantage can decide the winner in a close game (for what i understand you were saying).

So 2 equal gladiators, in both stats and strategy, will not have the same strenght, because one is able to buy all purple items goodies and 6 arch slots...
Even if the "poor" one can win once in a while, most of the victories will go to the "rich".
That´s not fair-play.

Look at the LoL business style, that F2P at its finnest.

[CaineDeSoulis]

After running a couple of months in relative silence. I've been able to maintain the 25 trophy bi weekly investment in the memberships. AND run a constant auto heal/auto repair. I've Still managed to save 129 trophies purely from just playing every morning and not spending compulsively. Granted Sedris is among the elite killers in the pits earning a lot of trophies from him. Sedris has made top 10 a couple of times same with caine and prey. (they seem to get stuck at number 7-8 :P) partially because my commitment to the resistance. the great thing about the current system is the flexibility it has. If I want to spend X dollars and "COMPETE" with the best there is I can do that in a matter of hours. If i want to take it easy and let my gladiators grow naturally I can do that.

The initial investment in a great stable is quite high as the stable upgrades are expensive but for the most part very much worth it. The Stable Slots for instance i would suggest ALL managers actively pursue gaining 5 gladiators. equipment slots for the most part i would get at least a few. Death Sickness and armory upgrades are a GREAT value for the long term tho i think i would stop at 5/6. Memberships and are a great value I highly suggest them. Achievement slots.....Well they will help you win but are not as good in the value to cost ratio. but I Dont see them as something you would use every day. more like something you can pump to win particular fights or something to experiment with :).

Pay to win? maybe but for the most part i think its matchup's and stratagy's that win battle not the amount of money you throw at a gladiator. but if you got those 2 things figured out it a little extra "insurance policy wouldn't hurt" ^_^

[Rex Nex]

I love it too, and of course you are free to have an opinion and glad you do, people without opinions are dull, but remember, opinions are not fact, they are just opinions be mindful to treat them as such.

Unfortunately it is a fact PoW is a pay-to-win game, not an opinion. It honestly shouldn't be an argument; anyone aware what pay-to-win mechanics look like will nod their head and say "yes, this is pay-to-win, but that is fine because blankidy blank" rather then "no its not pay-to-win, stop shouting opinions like they are facts!". PoW features a system that is eerily close to what anyone expects a pay-to-win system to look like. The thing that redeems it is the ability to get trophies without spending cash.

By the way, to those that aren't quite clear as to what pay-to-win actually is, it isn't necessarily "i pay i win all the time", but rather "i pay and gain an advantage you cant have". Pay-4-Advantage should be the name, but we have pay-2-win, so that is that.

Feel free to debate what you can do to make the current system more enjoyable, but at least be transparent when it comes to how the system works. Those who pay have an up front and clear advantage over those who don't. This is not a "truly free to play" game in which you only pay for cosmetics, more choices, and/or convenience. This is the alternative; free to pay.

Feel free to reply, but I don't think I'll be heading back into the forum for a while. I don't tend to stick around places like this... but I must say I love the game too. Especially the art and flavor text. I'm just hoping it expands in the right direction, is all.

[Narol]

You've hit the nail on the head !

[MrEpik]

Right on Rex,

Maybe someone can be a primus champion without spendin a single dime in the game, it doesn´t change the fact that by spending money in this, you gain actual combat advantages that give you an edge. FACT! Not opinion.

A game that has a business model F2P that doesn´t give you a winning edge is LoL.
There, spending money only saves you time or gives you aesthetics improvements (skins), money doesn´t give you any sort of leverage in actual PvP. (and LoL is just one example, i´m sure there are others around).

[Kreegan]

The payers can afford to "arm" their gladiators with all achievements, respec them if the initially chosen skills appear to be sub-optimal (given that the balance is pretty flawed at the moment, everybody on the high levels of Primus seems to go for Last Stand at some point), buy purple gear, additional Vault slots and upgrade the Armoury which allows cheap repairs (I have only one gladiator with mostly purple items and the repairs cost about 65% of the gold earned during the arena fights without the trophy upgrades), eventually Undertaker and Doctor. This is a huge advantage indeed but if more achievements were available for gold rather than trophies, you would be able to make at least one competitive build for free. Say what you want, the top Primus gladiators have all or most of their achievement slots used and that helps them A LOT to maintain their status. Fighting with someone who can afford +10-15 to his key stats, additional attack/defense and whatnot is quite a handicap for you.