Chain armor vs Plate armor

[Cynaidh]

This kinda started in Crow's post for AlphaIi and I'd rather not highjack his post.

From Kreegan


While you're at it, can someone explain why Theatrics in Medium armour seems to get considerably less damage than a non-tanking War with same level armour but Heavy (no shields)? Heavy Scarring, some defence bonus from Counterstrike? It seem pretty weird that the Rages cut through War's armour like it's made of butter while Theatrics are sometimes barely injured even by a high level Rampage strike.

From Dainoji

Gladiator strength scores are climbing higher then ever before, that could be a reason you are seeing less deflections. I noticed as Thunder Lips strength got much higher she got through armor more often. Weapon also matters. Axes and maces get through better than blades.

From Dainoji

Rampage takes a percent of the opponent's health based on the skill level of the rage gladiator.

In my opinion i agree with Kreegan chain is the better armor right now or theatrics are super more defensive then warriors (i am using the word super since they use a lesser type of armor but yet take less damage).

Now since we are talking about STR being the key factor i used Smak for a small run of challenges to see what it looked like today, he has 190 str, 10 skill in Two handed weapon, Brute Force, Rampage, Shock and Awe, Overwhelming Presence and Total Carnage.... in theory he should hit like a truck.

Luckily all the fights i got where against warriors and theatrics without shields (offense glads) so we can factor out shields totally.

VS theatrics and warriors i had him set to run 10 berserk 10 for these fights.

I think the data shows, that yes Rampage is totally based off hit points (which i am sure we all agree on), and that the CHAIN wearing theatrics take much less damage per hit then the PLATE wearing warriors. This is something i have noticed for awhile now even when compared to AlphaIi and Blacktalon who are warriors with 10 Battle Hardened, theatrics are taking much less damage per hit.

One of the attacks that really stands out to me is:

SMAK attacks wildly with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
RAVNOAL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable RAVNOAL bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+278 Damage)

Ravnoal has 9 in heavy scarring which we are assuming helps your armor, so a rank 10 Shock & Awe with rank 10 brute force, with 190 strength (which i have seen hit leather armor for over 1600) does less then 300 damage here.... really? That hit just blew me away.

Well lets have some data, all hits where red color crits :)

THEATRICS

VS RAVNOAL (1906)
SMAK attacks wildly with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
RAVNOAL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable RAVNOAL bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+278 Damage)

SMAK readies a strike from the ground.
SMAK storms RAVNOAL and seeks to smash him.
Massive shot to RAVNOAL's forearm...The grounds keepers are going to have to work hard to clean up this mess! (+245 Damage)

vs Narvalo (1614)
SMAK attacks viciously with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
Awesome shot to the upper arm squashes nerves and veins on bone shards! (+792 Damage)

SMAK whirls around as if on fire.
SMAK uses his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER to brutally crush NARVALO.
NARVALO backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
SMAK smiles after the beastly hit to NARVALO's forearm! (+365 Damage)

SMAK flashes like wild fire around NARVALO.
SMAK tries to strike his opponent.
Blast to the hand sends fingers flying in several different directions! (+322 Damage)

SMAK attempts to strike from the ground.
SMAK advances on NARVALO and tries to maim him.
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER tastes victory and inflicts massive wounds on NARVALO's sternum! (+490 Damage)


Vs Azmael (1694)
SMAK uses his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER to carve a path of destruction.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
SMAK connects with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER creating monstrous injuries! (+788 Damage)

SMAK charges frantically back and forth.
SMAK attacks wildly with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
AZMAEL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER tastes victory and inflicts gigantic injuries on AZMAEL's outer thigh! (+320 Damage)

SMAK ducks down and unleashes a deadly uppercut with his FIST.
SMAK looks to seriously damage AZMAEL's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
Massive shot to AZMAEL's shoulder blade...The grounds keepers are going to have to work hard to clean up this mess! (+236 Damage)

WARRIORS

VS Foxtrot (2197 hit points)
SMAK uses his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER to carve a path of destruction.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable FOXTROT bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+1025 Damage)

SMAK brutally slams his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER into FOXTROT.
FOXTROT backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Incredible smash to what used to be FOXTROT's stomach brings the crowd to their feet! (+470 Damage)

SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER carves a path of pain through the air.
SMAK looks to seriously damage FOXTROT's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
Monsterous shot creates an explosion of blood, bone, and loud screams! (+900 Damage)


VS ZEROTWENTYONE (1887 hit points)
SMAK whips his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER overhead viciously bringing death nearer.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
Awesome shot to the upper arm squashes nerves and veins on bone shards! (+1013 Damage)

SMAK bounces and leaps around ZEROTWENTYONE.
SMAK leaps forward, hammering his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER downward with great force.
ZEROTWENTYONE backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable ZEROTWENTYONE bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+473 Damage)

SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER crashes down with tremendous power.
SMAK's attack lands on ZEROTWENTYONE's upper arm creating titanic injuries! (+844 Damage)


VS ZEROELEVEN (1900)
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER accelerates toward its target with deadly purpose.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as she attacks! (-Rampage-)
SMAK lands a strike on ZEROELEVEN's forearm inflicting cyclopean wounds! (+959 Damage)

SMAK moves with uncontrolled energy around the arena.
SMAK leaps into the air and executes a cruel strike with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
Massive shot to ZEROELEVEN's groin...The grounds keepers are going to have to work hard to clean up this mess! (+1002 Damage)

[Dainoji]

Theatrics glads tend to have a LOT more agility than War glads and the tooltip says agility helps defense, so that could be part of the reason you are seeing what you are. Theatrics also has the skill Heavy Scarring which I presume adds armor based on the description and my experiments. Fighting style also matters, when I run Parry-X on my theatrics glads they take less damage than when they are running an offensive style. Throw into the mix achievements and you never know how much defense the other guy has which from what I've seen takes away from attack power which takes away from damage. Not to mention you'd need to run your tests 100 or 1000 more times to get a truly useful data set.

[Prinny]

If agility is the key factor to this try Smak vs Laharl,he's got 143 agility and walks around in the highest armor rating possible exept for his arms, thsoe are lvl 49~

[Cynaidh]

Yup I agree with your points but their agility scores aren't really what you might expect though (Ravnoal has 112, Foxtrot has 127, yet Ravnoal takes less damage) but I know what you mean. My main point is I am in agreement with Crow that something happened to plate armor in one of the past few patches, i need to buy the scribe on Smak's account to pull up the fights but before the last couple of patches when Smak or Belgarad would fight Eruption or AlphaIi they would both have like half of their attacks be deflections off the plate armor (at the same time i never really saw deflections off chain that much) now I rarely see deflections at all when i fight Eruption and AlphaIi even though Smak and Belgarad's stats/skills haven't changed that much.

[Cynaidh]

If i am in range tonight smak will challenge lahral, that's a crap ton of agil.

I really need to buy the scribe, i know smak and lahral have fought in the past week a few times i think.

[Dainoji]

If agility is the key factor to this try Smak vs Laharl,he's got 143 agility and walks around in the highest armor rating possible exept for his arms, thsoe are lvl 49~

Prinny, Laharl isn't wearing the best armor. He is wearing mostly plate armor, there is another level above that called full plate armor. Better go visit the blacksmith! ;)

[Prinny]

Prinny, Laharl isn't wearing the best armor. He is wearing mostly plate armor, there is another level above that called full plate armor. Better go visit the blacksmith! ;)

Not rly Dain, thsoe 2 have the same armour ratings so i went with the lower weight ones to have as low encumbrance as possible, but with the patch laharl is still on 27& lol

[crow]

I will comment here based upon what I have seen in the last few months with my guys Eruption and Alpha, who both have level 10 in battle hardened.

When running parry-slash in these 2 instances they do tend to block a few shots and deflect a few more than normal, but when they do get hit, they get lit up like a christmas tree. Also with running the Parry style..Dain is correct in the fact that there damage output is much less than in the normal slash attack, which is understandable.

I am sure that the uptick in damage is a result in strength. The Rampage attack from what I have noticed does not seem to take in account armor protection, but more simply the amount of starting HP. And a level 10 rampage attack will get close to 50% HP damage. One of the big issues I have been seeing, is 400-600 HP shots that were once reserved only for the 2handers is now almost commonplace from dual weapon rages. I wonder when designing did this Nate ever envision some of the glads getting close to 200 strength. I personally am just rolling with this right now. I figure when Nate completes some of the projects he is working on, he will take a good look at the overall state of the game and make some skill balancing passes and try to even things up a bit.

[Kreegan]

I don't think that the Agility value has something to do with this (not directly at least). I have a lvl 19 War with 82 basic Agility, 94 with the gear, 50% of the armour pieces are Heavy Armour and I've seen enemy Rages hit exactly these spots with 2H weapons and deal brutal damage (for example - a simple green Flamberge with something like 60-100 damage in the hands of a pretty mediocre lvl 18 Rage managed to deal two very heavy hits against areas with Heavy Armour, one of them scoring more than 400 damage!). I also have an offensive Theatrics (no shields) with 92 Agility at level 26, clad in Light and Medium armour and a strategy to Counterstrike against Rages and he takes much less damage from their attacks compared to my Wars. In both cases the armour is somewhat up to date with the levels of the respective gladiators.
I've noticed the same behaviour in the tavern missions - my level 35 2H Rage is fighting against some lower level Theatrics creep with universally inferior stats and is struggling to deal some serious damage (rarely more than 300 no matter the attack type). At the same time, War creeps in full Heavy Armour are brought down in 2 strikes x 400-500 damage, sometimes even just one. And of course the fights of the same Rage in the Arena - Theatrics +/- 3-4 levels compared to her rarely take hits dealing more than 200-300 damage while Wars of similar level usually receive some 400-500 damage per hit in well-armoured areas. This has happened to me way too many times to think that it's a coincidence.

[Cynaidh]

VS Lahral with his 143 agility

SMAK unleashes a vicious crushing attack with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER tastes victory and inflicts magnificent damage on LAHARL's shin! (+864 Damage)

SMAK moves around on the ground looking for an opening to strike.
SMAK whips around, swinging his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER with unbelievable speed.
LAHARL's shoulder is smashed into a thousand pieces! (+413 Damage)

SMAK drives towards LAHARL and attempts to wound his opponent.
LAHARL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Great blast to LAHARL's upper arm shatters all in its path! (+451 Damage)

SMAK moves around on the ground looking for an opening to strike.
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER hurtles through the air with deadly intent.
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER connects with LAHARL's thigh inflicting gigantic wounds! (+464 Damage)

SMAK tries to attack from the ground.
SMAK overruns LAHARL and tries to hurt his adversary.
Heavy shot crushes LAHARL's shin sending bone fragments to adjacent areas...LAHARL looks to the Enforcer with puppy dog eyes! (+675 Damage)
LAHARL is bleeding very badly from several wounds!!!

I think its fairly easy to see that agility isn't what is making the theatrics so much more defensive, Ravnoal has 30 less points of agility then Laharl yet he takes less damage per hit then Laharl.

[Cynaidh]

On a side note is any one else really tired of the change the amount of points you loose on a loss now in Primus, Smak started trying to challenge Lahral at rank 16 in primus, it took me like 8 fights to finally get a challenge threw to him (actually took 3 fights, first fight he disarmed me first hit, so no data on that fight, 2nd fight he just kicked smak's ass, smak never attacked, 3rd fight was the charm and they slugged it out), during that I would loose 1 fight, drop 20 some odd places, have to win 2-3 fights to get back to where i could challenge him again.

[Prinny]

Slightly off topic, Nice Laharl killed Smak 2 times in thsoe 3 fights :P

[Cynaidh]

Yup, he is a 2 handed rage so he is gimped all to hell, will be a max skilled on at least soon.

When Belgarad isn't in the top 10 anymore i'll do this again with him, he has 190 str also, exact same as Smak but his damage per round is MUCH damn higher, duel wield is so much better right now its not even funny.

[oedi]

You need to compare fighting styles aswell. Its a huge difference in damage between hitting a gladiator with a defensive style and one with an offensive style. My guess is that the war gladiators you fought all used some offensive fighting style, and all the theatrics you fought used a defensive fighting style. Counter strike is a defensive fighting style that works best against berserk. If as a war you go 10 activity(high activity helps with defending agains more attacks) and some defensive style, youll see those hits against war reduced to half or even more.

[Cynaidh]

Good idea Oedi, and i can test this! as Black Talon is a warrior with plate on and rank 10 in Battle Hardened i'll go run some fights with him set at 10 parry-bash 7 as his only strat and see how he gets hit.

[Cynaidh]

And he did parry a lot but here are the hits, here are some highlights, some of the fights where omg boring when he fought another defensive guy! To me i don't really seem him taking that much less damage then the other warriors above vs two-handed users, maybe they where using parry-bash, or parry-bash has nothing to do with how much damage you take if you get hit.

So here we go hits vs a warrior in plate with 10 battle hardened running 10 parry-bash 7:

VS Arg 2handed user
ARG's MAUL sails through the air with wicked intent.
ARG tries to knock BLACK TALON down with the force of the blow! (-Barreling Attack-)
BLACK TALON screams as he gets knocked to the ground by the massive shot!
A crippling wound is opened on BLACK TALON's tricep! (+872 Damage)

Note: Arg only got 1 hit in that fight

VS Switch 2hand user
SWITCH hurtles around as if on fire.
SWITCH clashes with BLACK TALON and tries to maul his opponent.
SWITCH looks to seriously damage BLACK TALON's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
Massive shot punches a hole through BLACK TALON's chest! (+421 Damage)

SWITCH looks to pummel BLACK TALON with his EPIC GIANT HACKER.
SWITCH looks to seriously damage BLACK TALON's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
SWITCH's attack lands on BLACK TALON's hand inflicting magnificent injuries! (+420 Damage)

Note: Switch got disarmed after that hit, so rest where with a one handed sword so i threw them out

VS Belgarad duel weilding
BELGARAD pelts around as if on fire.
BELGARAD strikes at BLACK TALON and looks to pound him.
BELGARAD roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
BLACK TALON's forearm is totally smashed by the freakish blow! (+821 Damage)

BELGARAD's HEROIC MORNING STAR comes crashing down with deadly force.
BELGARAD looks to seriously damage BLACK TALON's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
Several snaps can be heard as BLACK TALON's neck is broken in several places from the tremendous crushing shot! (+572 Damage)

BELGARAD attacks ferociously with his HEROIC MORNING STAR.
BELGARAD's HEROIC MORNING STAR tastes victory and inflicts mighty injuries on BLACK TALON's arm! (+687 Damage)


VS CZAR duel weilding
CZAR darts right at his enemy.
CZAR overruns BLACK TALON and attempts to injure his adversary.
CZAR smiles after the titanic hit to BLACK TALON's upper arm! (+102 Damage)

CZAR moves with uncontrolled energy around the arena.
CZAR makes an off handed attack.
CZAR seeks to pummel his adversary.
CZAR tries to fake BLACK TALON out with a few twirls of his weapon! (-Feint-)
Magnificent hit to the shin creates a pain so unbearable BLACK TALON bites off a portion of his tongue in an attempt not to scream! (+105 Damage)

CZAR makes an off handed attack.
CZAR's MASTERWORK TOMAHAWK brutally slices toward his opponent.
CZAR lands a strike on BLACK TALON's butt causing huge injuries! (+85 Damage)

CZAR looks for a crushing attack with his MASTERWORK TOMAHAWK.
CZAR tries to knock BLACK TALON down with the force of the blow! (-Barreling Attack-)
BLACK TALON drops to one knee after the shot!
Whoosh...several ribs are driven into the lungs! (+141 Damage)

BT jumped back up here

CZAR hopes for a crushing shot with his HEROIC CRUSHER.
Unrivaled power helps drive the weapon into BLACK TALON's lower thigh cracking bone and mangling flesh...it doesn't look good for BLACK TALON! (+228 Damage)

CZAR moves with uncontrolled energy around the arena.
CZAR makes a powerful crushing attack with his HEROIC CRUSHER.
Massive shot to BLACK TALON's upper back...The grounds keepers are going to have to work hard to clean up this mess! (+369 Damage)

CZAR's HEROIC CRUSHER hurls toward BLACK TALON.
CZAR tries to fake BLACK TALON out with a few twirls of his weapon! (-Feint-)
Unrivaled power helps drive the weapon into BLACK TALON's lower thigh cracking bone and mangling flesh...it doesn't look good for BLACK TALON! (+228 Damage)

vs LARSHAMIR FURYO 2 handed user
LARSHAMIR FURYO hustles frantically around BLACK TALON.
LARSHAMIR FURYO seeks to slice into BLACK TALON.
LARSHAMIR FURYO connects with his MASTERWORK GREAT SWORD inflicting cyclopean damage! (+467 Damage)

LARSHAMIR FURYO tries to cleave his enemy with his MASTERWORK GREAT SWORD.
LARSHAMIR FURYO looks to seriously damage BLACK TALON's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
Terrible slash to BLACK TALON...entrails spill out onto the ground! (+370 Damage)

LARSHAMIR FURYO moves towards BLACK TALON and looks to cripple his opponent.
LARSHAMIR FURYO tries to fake BLACK TALON out with a few twirls of his weapon! (-Feint-)
A huge laceration to the lower arm exposes meat and tissue...BLACK TALON's arm becomes almost useless! (+580 Damage)

LARSHAMIR FURYO hurtles furiously to and fro.
LARSHAMIR FURYO whirls around, slashing his MASTERWORK GREAT SWORD in a powerful backhanded arc.
LARSHAMIR FURYO tries to knock BLACK TALON down with the force of the blow! (-Barreling Attack-)
BLACK TALON drops to the ground grabbing his wound!
Powerful slash trims BLACK TALON's fingernails...and the rest of his hand! (+293 Damage)

LARSHAMIR FURYO flies uncontrollably back and forth.
LARSHAMIR FURYO attempts to slash his opponent with his MASTERWORK GREAT SWORD.
LARSHAMIR FURYO tries to fake BLACK TALON out with a few twirls of his weapon! (-Feint-)
Shot to the head removes BLACK TALON's eye along with part of the brain! (+510 Damage) <-- killed BT with that one

[Cynaidh]

Stats on Black Talon:
Str 173 Int 78 Agil 106 Stam 113 Size 82 Pres 85 Chi 66
Skills:
10 Brute Force, 10 Mace/Axe, 10 Feint, 10 Create Distance, 10 Armor Movement, 10 Warcry, 10 Hamstring, 10 Athleticism, 10 Combat instincts, 10 battle hardened

He is a Spite which should have given him bonus defense also.

[Cynaidh]

ok another side issues but This KILLS me, Smak has 10 more str, has higher skills and gets less then half the number of attacks per round but compare the the damage vs Laharl, they are almost the exact same 1 handed weapon vs 2 handed weapon, hell Belgarad even has the higher normal hit:

SMAK unleashes a vicious crushing attack with his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER.
SMAK roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER tastes victory and inflicts magnificent damage on LAHARL's shin! (+864 Damage)

SMAK moves around on the ground looking for an opening to strike.
SMAK whips around, swinging his EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER with unbelievable speed.
LAHARL's shoulder is smashed into a thousand pieces! (+413 Damage)

SMAK drives towards LAHARL and attempts to wound his opponent.
LAHARL backs up a few inches as SMAK descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Great blast to LAHARL's upper arm shatters all in its path! (+451 Damage)

SMAK moves around on the ground looking for an opening to strike.
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER hurtles through the air with deadly intent.
SMAK's EPIC SLEDGE HAMMER connects with LAHARL's thigh inflicting gigantic wounds! (+464 Damage)

SMAK tries to attack from the ground.
SMAK overruns LAHARL and tries to hurt his adversary.
Heavy shot crushes LAHARL's shin sending bone fragments to adjacent areas...LAHARL looks to the Enforcer with puppy dog eyes! (+675 Damage)
LAHARL is bleeding very badly from several wounds!!!

VS

BELGARAD flashes right at his enemy.
BELGARAD's HEROIC MORNING STAR arcs through the air carving a brutal path of destruction.
BELGARAD roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
Monsterous shot creates an explosion of blood, bone, and loud screams! (+872 Damage)

BELGARAD whirls right at his adversary.
BELGARAD charges at LAHARL and attempts to flatten his enemy.
LAHARL backs up a few inches as BELGARAD descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
Whoosh...several ribs are driven into the lungs! (+295 Damage)

BELGARAD looks at the crowd as he hurtles around the battle field.
BELGARAD brutally lashes out with his HEROIC MORNING STAR leaving the crowd in awe.
Unrivaled power helps drive the weapon into LAHARL's lower thigh cracking bone and mangling flesh...it doesn't look good for LAHARL! (+749 Damage)

[Narol]

Larshamir smiles and makes a scratch on his weapon for BT's kill !

On a side note, I totally agree with Cynaidh, the point loss for defeats in Primus is much too big, to the point that the rankings hardly make sense...

When you consider that the best Win/Loss ratio in Primus are in the 60-65% range, it would make sense that being abble to win 60% of your fights allow you to climb up the ranks slowly which is not the case at all...

A loss of points equal to 1.5 times the points you earn for a win would do the trick !

[crow]

I'm sure the reason why Nate, changed the points system in the primus was to bring back some of the top glads. At one point a few of my glads were 40K points in front of the next guy. If they would have continued at that rate they would have been virtually uncatchable. Especially since the old system would not allow a single glad to get away. When Eruption was on top, the most points he ever got away from Laharl who was 2nd was almost 8k. But I guess a clause triggered in the points system to which he was not gaining points anymore for wins, but if he lost he would lose a bunch. That is probably why he lost over 4k in points when Prey killed him and took over the top spot. But after the initial pass that Nate did a few months ago, I was able to use Echo and Foxtrot in tandem and pull away from the field by a huge margin. So Nate's adjustment to the point system brought them back to everyone. Now the field is VERY tightly bunched.

[Cynaidh]

I agree Crow that's why he changed it but i think he had side effects that maybe where not thought about.

Individual gladiator skill/strategy is now pointless in my opinion, its all about numbers now, how many glads you can use to challenge someone. It used to be if you could bring a glad to Primus and keep a 65% win ratio and you would climb up the ranks, i did with Belgarad he was my only glad in Primus and before this points change he caught up and took the top spot under the old system, so it was possible.

Now with the points change i think you can forget about ever seeing a single gladiator do that again. It is now going to take a solid 10-15 gladiators to make a push to the top spot and here is my reasoning why. If you spend your daily tokens wisely and have your challenges go threw and win all your fights you might climb 30 ranks in one day, even make it into the teens, but all that growth can be knocked out by 3-4 losses. And whats the easiest way to give someone those losses, attack them in mass.

Right now in the Primus Top 10 Crow/Oedi have 7 of the glads, in the top 20 they have 13 of the glads, in the top 30 around 19 glads, so below 30 you two have another 7 glads or so. So if your in the top 10 you have at least 3 of their glads challenging each day just cause your the only target, if your in the top 10-20 you could be challenged more (I'd guess though that their goal right now is clearing out the top 10, that's what I'd be doing :) ). Even if you win 70% of those fights you will loose points with how the new system is.

For an example i will use Zmash, he is in the top 10 right now, i don't expect him to be there much longer, if he lasts 2 more weeks i'd consider him a bad ass :). Early this morning he was in 2nd place and about 3k away from 1st place after his fights and then during the day today he was challenged 12 times by Crow/Oedi gladiators (4 different glads) and won about 50% of the fights, he is now 13k points away from 1st and dropped from 2nd to 4th place. Every time he drops a rank it just opens him up to more challenges from different glads. By cherry picking the match ups they can easily push all the other glads out of the top of Primus. Each time one person is pushed out that free's up more glads for them to challenge the remaining glads with, even if your winning 60% of your fights against the challenges with the amount of points you now loose on a lose you will drop in rank.

I have no real complaints about what Crow/Oedi are doing its just how the game works right now, but I do believe they will be able to get to the point where they are the top 15 if not the top 20 glads in the game due to them having all types the different types of glads at their disposal, every glad has a weakness no one glad can take on everyone, they can cherry pick the challenges and use favorable match ups to achieve this. I fully expect them to take over the top 15-20 or more, hell I'd be disappointed if they don't!

Now I am kinda focused on Crow/Oedi here but it will be the same when another group rises with more numbers then they have and they will be pushed out unless their glads can win 75% of there battles (which should be unrealistic when matched up against the "counter" style to your glad) or what ever it takes to stay points neutral on wins/losses. I am sure we will see this in the months to come. They just happen to be the top "Alliance" right now.

I decided today to stop trying to being "competitive" in Primus, I just really don't see the point right now, before it was about trying to take a gladiator to the top, now its about politics and playing the numbers game, some people probably really enjoy that type of game but its not my thing. I have no interest in trying to start a "cold war" of gladiator stables and try and match the number of glads Crow/Oedi have in Primus. So i plan on focusing on the blood games and re-doing some of my glads to make them more competitive there, daily fights will just be to get training points.

Now if you've made it this far do i think there is a fix, yes its an easy fix, just lower the % chance of a challenge going threw, and put a hard cap on the number of times a glad can be successfully challenged, say 4 a day. That would insure that high end "Alliances" would still end up fighting each other a lot, and give "Independent" managers with 1-3 glads a hell of a better shot of seeing the top of Primus then how it is now.

[Cynaidh]

Damn i got long winded on that one. :)

I am now off to go try and take a beer from one of BlkTmplr's bears.

[crow]

If you want I will call off the dogs so to speak, and we can just go back to normal. I only did this in response to the "Rage United" group that started relentlessly challenging my guys and Oedi's. You guys let me know. This game is about fun, and if it stops being fun then that is when people stop playing and that is not what I am about. It always sucks to see a stable manager quit for whatever reason.

[Dainoji]

IMO Primus is exactly as it needs to be. The top glads are still in the top, all the usual suspects are winning enough to keep their spots or rise, those who are not worthy drop. Sure it gets disheartening to see your glad rise to the teens only to be knocked back, but guess what that means? Your glad just isn't good enough, that's what that means. If your glad is good enough it doesn't matter how many times he or she is challenged, if they are good enough they'll win most of those challenges and hold their position and maybe even rise. Changing the point system so mediocre glads can keep their spots is just silly. I'm not picking on anyone with this post either, my crown jewel for most of last year Thunder Lips simply isn't good enough anymore to hold the top spots, the new breed of gladiators that have made their way into Primus are simply better and their managers are better. It's evolution baby, survival of the fittest.

Another thing with the current point system is it makes new glads who are level 50 and by all means equal to a glad one year older on even footing sort to speak. You shouldn't get an in-game advantage in a PvP game simply because you've been around longer, that extra time should give you an out of game advantage in the form of knowledge the new player doesn't have.

Regarding the complaint of getting picked on, I agree with Crow on having fun and all, but listen, you are in the Primus with the best of the best and what I see happening right now is awesome and exciting, players are self organizing into gangs and beating the shit out of each other using team work, that is A W E S O M E! If you can't take the heat you have a couple of options:

1) Join a group and get strength in numbers (best option)
2) Figure out how to be a bad ass and be a lone wolf
3) Leave the kitchen (worse option, unless you are a horrible cook)

Crow, if you call off the dogs I'll have no respect for you. If Rage United can't take it, then continue to pound them into obscurity, they started the war! If they don't want to get picked on they are free to denounce their guild and go freelance as they once were, but then I'd have no respect for them either! ;)

I guess I'd add one last piece and say, for now Primus is all about bragging rights, you don't get anything for being in the top 10, so have fun with it, maybe politics isn't your thing, that's cool, but perhaps you can be an "enforcer" for one of the guilds, or a "gun for hire". You can keep your independent status yet still work with and against opposing factions.

[Dainoji]

Damn i got long winded on that one. :)

I am now off to go try and take a beer from one of BlkTmplr's bears.

I think we've created another Pit of War meme! We can add this next to Grape Ape.

[Dainoji]

Back to the plate vs chain vs war vs theatrics discussion. Another factor that I think might have been brought up earlier but is worth mentioning again is I see a lot of Spite Theatrics glads. Spite's get a natural bonus to defense, so there is one more variable to throw in there.

[Cynaidh]

If you want I will call off the dogs so to speak, and we can just go back to normal. I only did this in response to the "Rage United" group that started relentlessly challenging my guys and Oedi's. You guys let me know. This game is about fun, and if it stops being fun then that is when people stop playing and that is not what I am about. It always sucks to see a stable manager quit for whatever reason.

I am not quitting! And hell no I want to see you and Oedi succeed, looking forward to it, like i said above if this is how the game is evolving then you guys are just in a good position right now till the next group comes up to challenge you (Looks like Caine has that in the works as we speak). Besides I am kinda interested on how long Zmash can last. I just plan on shifting focus to the blood games, the whole guild, clan, alliance what ever you want to call it just isn't my thing anymore, i spent a large portion of my life running a 100+ person guild in EQ and then WoW and got totally burned out on those games from it.... Did that, done that, don't plan on doing it again. :)


1) Join a group and get strength in numbers (best option)

I totally agree Dainoji I think the game is fixing to see an huge uptake in groups,clans,alliances its not a bad thing its just an evolution of the game.


Back to the plate vs chain vs war vs theatrics discussion. Another factor that I think might have been brought up earlier but is worth mentioning again is I see a lot of Spite Theatrics glads. Spite's get a natural bonus to defense, so there is one more variable to throw in there.

Black Talon is a sprite also so we can rule that out.

I think we are down to 2 things:

1. Counter Strike is much more defensive then Parry-Bash(slash/lunge) - I have tested this on Cel i don't take less damage in counter strike then i do when running Parry-slash, it might be a bit more actually. So I don't believe this is the difference.

2. the theatrics Level 5 Heavy Scarring is a much better skill then the warriors level 6 Battle Hardened - I think this is it, Battle Hardened just raises your defensive which i am beginning to believe only effects your parry/deflections/your opponents miss rate and has nothing to do with how much damage you take per hit, Heavy Scarring description doesn't really tell us what it does but to me its kinda straight forward now that it lowers how much damage you take per hit, its the last factor we have to look at that could be doing it.

So my final thoughts on all this is that due to Battle Hardened not effecting how much damage you can hit, its really hard for a defensive warrior to be successful cause you have power ragers hitting them for 1k damage on normal hits due to them having no skill that lowers damage per hit. An offensive warrior with battle hardened will not be as effective as an offensive theatrics with Heavy scarring due to how the skills work, when using bash, lunge, slash offensive warriors do not parry much, showing that they doing get much out of battle hardened. While at the same time an offensive theatrics still gets the lower damage per hit from Heavy scarring no matter what strategy they use (again in my opinion). Since theatrics can also pick up Create Distance from the warrior tree I would also say at this point that a theatrics in chain armor has a greater ability in being a defensive gladiator then a warrior does in plate armor due to these skill differences.

[Cynaidh]

If your glad is good enough it doesn't matter how many times he or she is challenged, if they are good enough they'll win most of those challenges and hold their position and maybe even rise.

That is impossible IF your going against a well organized large alliance with a variety of gladiators. Every glad in this game so far has had a counter, even the glads at the very top Summit and Delta, a speed based offensive theatrics eats them alive, i proved that to myself with Cel even before she was skill capped. I just couldn't keep her in the top due to the large number of warriors laying around in the top 20.

Power rage beat warriors of all types and defensive theatrics
Speed rage beats power rage
Offensive theatrics beat both type of rages
Offensive Warriors with athleticism beat offensive theatrics
Defensive theatrics beat speed rage and some warriors
Defensive warriors... well they try to skum you but good luck with that

And then you have all the hybrid builds which blows my mind up thinking of all those match ups. :)

There is always a counter, so if an alliance is big enough, they will only challenge your glad with the counter style to your gladiator, and yes you might win some of the fights, but I would be surprised to see a glad beat their counter style more then 50%. If your a super bad ass Duel wield rage, they are going to throw their offensive theatrics at you only, so you will drop in ranks.

[Prinny]

Just figure out a way to make your glad badass and make them win agaisnt a high variety of glads, im trying to do that with Laharl and since he's learned Last Stand 10 he's been doing alot better against various glads including the huge damage a round hitting rages he majorly lost to before.

He's ranked 10th atm and im not being all to picky in choosing my opponents exept when I feel like making him battle a glad and most of the time the ones I pick are the ones Laharl has a harder time against lol

The other 4 are just laying low in Primus/Maximus as I build up their skills/attributes and lvl them to 50 upon which ill give them some nice shining new gear when I feel like it.

[Cynaidh]

Oh nice! The warrior/rage hybrid does seem to do well there is no doubt about that at all. Very similar build to my guy Zmash, except Zmash is 2handed. Have you fought Caine or Summit yet? Zmash rarely makes it to round 2 vs either of them.

[Prinny]

Caine massacres Laharl ofcourse, the massive damage and hitrate a round is hard to keep up with, if he were to trigger hamstring or Sig Move: Stun and succeed I believe he has a chance but haven't fought him enough to see this. You cna compare it pretty much to the fights of Laharl Vs Belgarad lol.

If i recall correctly the last fight agaisnt Summit was won by Laharl lol
Laharl came back with Last Stand and did Sig Move Stun and Hamstring in a combo with it if I remember it properly XD

[Cynaidh]

Summit is the scariest power rage out there right now to me, most of my guys last 3 hits vs him, he will get a 1k rampage, a 400 point sunder armor and then a 1200 hit finisher, normally all in round 1 doesn't seem to matter if your in leather or plate, and he has 0 in blood drunk so that 1200 hit is just a normal blow. I know the other day he finished Bel off with a 1600 damage hit, i was going to put it in the big hit post, but he had a sunder in so it didn't count for that. Yesterday he challenged Zmash 5 times, he won all 5, Zmash was even getting hamstring off in round 1 in some of them too, just made no difference.

Belgarad just doesn't throw the same damage as him, haven't exactly been able to figure out why, their stats are actually very similar the only stat where he has a large amount more is int.

[Prinny]

Int factors alot more in weapon skill especially for rages that's the only place where it is rly usefull for them lol.
It could also be a difference in strategies ;)

[Cynaidh]

Here is a normal Summit vs Belgarad fight from today, even though bel is running vs rage 10 bezerk 3 and a slightly faster main hand weapon and same speed off hand i cant get an attack in normally:

R O U N D 1
>> SUMMIT SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
>> BELGARAD SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 1
SUMMIT sneaks in an off handed strike.
SUMMIT attempts to wound BELGARAD.
SUMMIT looks to seriously damage BELGARAD's armour! (-Sunder Armour-)
SUMMIT's SOULWOOD HAND AXE tastes victory and inflicts cyclopean damage on BELGARAD's lower arm! (+399 Damage)
>> BELGARAD SWITCHES TO STRATEGY 2
SUMMIT collides with BELGARAD and seeks to cleave him.
SUMMIT roars uncontrollably as he attacks! (-Rampage-)
A huge laceration to the lower arm exposes meat and tissue...BELGARAD's arm becomes almost useless! (+942 Damage)

SUMMIT dances and skips around the arena.
SUMMIT seeks to slice into BELGARAD.
BELGARAD backs up a few inches as SUMMIT descends upon him! (-Shock & Awe-)
SUMMIT's WYRMWOOD SPLITTER tastes victory and inflicts massive injuries on BELGARAD's wrist! (+831 Damage)

BELGARAD begins to plea for his worthless life and after a moment of thought SUMMIT spits on the pitiful fool and walks away!
The fight lasted 11 seconds!

[Cynaidh]

Those huge hits he throws make last stand useless as he is jumping over the amount of damage rank 10 last stand can heal, so it never goes off.

[Prinny]

Um it might lie with the 10 berserk 3, personally i tend to run with 10 - 10 lol
Than again I make thankfull use of the Athleticism skill

[Cynaidh]

Ya i did a shit ton of testing with blood lust, lower values in it = more initiative, when i was testing vs Wargh, Belgarad would never get the first hit in unless i went 3 blood lust or lower, so i run low vs other rages to get the first hit in, works on other rages, my guess is summit is running a lower blood lust vs rages also (of course i could be wrong wouldn't be the first time), you don't really need a high blood lust do to rages have 0 defense, i still get 1k hits with Belgarad vs other rages if he attacks even with the 3 blood lust :)

[Cynaidh]

Hmm maybe i'll try that some day Athleticism on a rage...

10 Mace/axe, 10 Brute Force, 10 Barreling attack, 10 Armor Movement, 10 Rampage, 10 Last Stand, 10 Shock and Awe
10 Feint, 10 Death from Above, 10 Athleticism

Would have to put points into Grim Determination and Create Distance to unlock Athleticism and then buy those points back with trophies but that might would be fun! He wouldn't miss :P

[Prinny]

Oh they can still fumble with their weapons, it just barely happens

[Cynaidh]

Wow was just considering doing what you did with Black Talon, i hate he has battle hardened now after figuring all this out, and it would be 300 trophies just to unlearn the skills to move them to last stand... it almost be better to start over and use those trophies to power level a new glad.

[Kreegan]

If these things are as you say, it sucks that War's top level skill is inferior to a lower level Theatrics' skill. It seems less and less viable to go below War's 4th row skills, Hamstring and War Cry seem to be the class' peak, the higher levels are just padding.
Anyway, it's rather clear that Theatrics have better defensive capabilities than (non-tanking) War (which is weird, because War is supposed to be the defensive class). The thing is that even strictly defensive Theatrics is very often pummeled by any type of War while at the same time he/she can take out the maddened Rages who in turn make a short work of any defensive War. Something is messed up.

[Dainoji]

I'm not sure War is supposed to be "The Defensive" glad in the arena. Given the Theatrics skill tree and fighting styles I think they are both meant to have the ability to be defensive glads but in a different way. War should be able to tank and absorb damage better and theatrics should be able to scum (i.e. make the other glad pass out) better. This is all on paper of course. In reality it isn't quite happening that way. I've got Chuck Norris my theatrics glad spec'd to scum and he does it a lot but not enough to be competitive across the board, and I've got Pharaoh my war glad spec'd to tank and it also works with limited success.

The problem right now and it's no secret to those of us who have been around for awhile is defense is really hard to pull off. In the early days of the game defense was strong and people complained and it was nerfed big time to prevent boring fights. Now the players have reached the "end game" and different issue are coming to light, the same kind of stuff that always happens in a MMO. I've written Nate and I'm sure others have and he is aware of the issues and has said he'll be looking at them. If we can get defense to work as designed (or at least how I think it was meant to work) I think we'd open up a lot of new possibilities and strategies and given the game's track record and the devs willingness to listen to us and improve the game I'm just being patient as I know it will happen. Until then I'll try and hone my my defensive glads and see what they can do!